It’s the End of the World as We Know It!
John on October 4, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Tomorrow there is a big protest to drive out the “Bush regime.” This is the 5th annual one, I understand. The World Can’t Wait is the name of the organization behind this. They are part of something called the Alliance for Global Justice. Background on the Alliance is here. In part:
The Alliance for Global Justice (AGJ) is a Washington, D.C.-based charity that promotes opposition to free-market capitalism, particularly in Latin America, under the cover of engaging in “education on human, environmental and worker rights.” AGJ underwrites and publicizes the activities of revolutionary Marxist movements from Nicaragua to Mexico and trains young activists to work toward its distinctly radical conception of “economic justice.”
In any case, tomorrow is the big day. They are calling for everyone to skip work and school for the big event. The pdf flyer is available here. It reads in part:
YOUR GOVERNMENT is moving each day closer to a theocracy, where a narrow and hateful brand of Christian fundamentalism will rule.
YOUR GOVERNMENT suppresses the science that doesn’t fit its religious, political and economic agenda, forcing present and future generations to pay a terrible price.
YOUR GOVERNMENT is moving to deny women here, and all over the world, the right to birth control and abortion.
YOUR GOVERNMENT enforces a culture of greed, bigotry, intolerance and ignorance.People look at all this and think of Hitler — and they are right to do so. The Bush regime is setting out to radically remake society very quickly, in a fascist way, and for generations to come.
[...]
There is not going to be some magical “pendulum swing.” People who steal elections and believe they’re on a “mission from God” will not go without a fight. There will be no savior from the Democratic Party. This whole idea of putting our hopes and energies into “leaders” who tell us to seek common ground with fascists and religious fanatics is proving every day to be a disaster, and actually serves to demobilize people.
All of this might give you the sense they’re anti-religion. But apparently you can be a priest and not be a “religious fanatic.” The groups supporters include Rev. Jessie Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton, plus Martin Sheen and Jane Fonda (both Christians). Their national steering committee includes Father Luis Barrios and Rev. Deborah Lake. So it’s not anti-Christian’s per se, it’s just the conservative variety who remind them of Hitler. (For the umpteenth time, Hitler was not a Christian!)
Speaking as a religious fanatic who is pro-life, pro free market and pro science, I’d just like to say…
BOO!
Seriously, the pot is making you paranoid. Put down the bong, pop open a can of pringles, and relax.
And, oh yeah…go to school tomorrow!
[HT: Michelle Malkin]
Category: Secularism & Socialism |
The involvement of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton tells me all I need to know about this.
October 4, 2006 @ 3:47 pmBy the way, I feel fine… :-P
October 4, 2006 @ 3:47 pmWe as followers of Christ should not get caught up with defending anything but the faith. And one day the world’s Dagons, including the one people bow to in Washington, will be bowing the knee and confessing that “Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father”.
Sorry, I couldn’t help it.
October 4, 2006 @ 4:51 pmFor the UMPTEENTH time Hitler was a Christian. Why can’t you accept the fact?
October 5, 2006 @ 6:19 amRoger,
You need to check your history and your terminology…Hitler was religious, not a Christian.
“Christian” (meaning “little Christ) indicates a lifestyle dedicated to following Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, that comes about through making a conscious decision to do so.
Hitler never claimed any sort of transforming experience/encounter/decision to turn over his “old self” to God and to become a “new person” in Christ.
Unlike many of the world’s religions,, you can’t be born a Christian. You have to make a decision to be a Christian.
Maybe that’s why you never “got it” back when you claim you were a “Christian” in your youth.
Scott
October 5, 2006 @ 7:14 amOh no!!!! I forgot it was today!!!! the day to overthrow the government, now it’ll never be overthrown!!!!
Roger, you might be one of the last people alive to know Der Fuhrer personally, I make this assumption because only then can you be so sure he was Christian.
Scott is dead on, I suggest you read (re-read) his comment
October 5, 2006 @ 8:05 amRoger,
Hitler’s outlook was more influenced by Darwin than by the Bible. Note this quote from Mein Kampf:
His recorded conversations also include this:
And here he is again, sounding a bit like a generic Free Inquiry article:
And again:
And this one really sounds like Dan Dennett:
And more:
Here he sounds more like the ACLU:
On his own education:
Here’s one I find particularly interesting in light of the final solution:
I could go on. Suffice it to say, Hitler’s views of religion and science have far more in common with your outlook than with mine. I don’t think that’s a coincidence either.
October 5, 2006 @ 9:08 amAnswer not a fool…
October 5, 2006 @ 10:04 amThis has to be the same Henry that told me to leave the politics to Satan… loved that line
October 5, 2006 @ 10:20 amHenry’s a bit monastic at times. I see some value in that, but it’s not my thing.
October 5, 2006 @ 11:37 amI was referring to a man that wants to argue that Hitler was a Christian. It’s like arguing with the flat earth guy.
October 5, 2006 @ 11:40 am[...] Verum Serum quotes a flyer from an upcoming anti-Bush protest: YOUR GOVERNMENT is moving each day closer to a theocracy, where a narrow and hateful brand of Christian fundamentalism will rule. [...]
October 5, 2006 @ 1:51 pmScott,
Well said about Roger’s pre-school understanding of what defines a christian.
October 5, 2006 @ 8:17 pmI almost get the impression that you guys are holocaust deniers. The holocaust was a Christian deed perpetrated by Hitler and his henchmen. Hitler quotes and justifies much of his hatred of the Jews from the writings of Martin Luther. I am going to save space by not quoting Luther’s numerous calls for burning of synagogues and the homes of Jews. Read it yourself by googling The Jews and Their Lies by Martin Luther.
October 5, 2006 @ 8:34 pmHitler considered himself a Roman Catholic but detested the hierarchy of the church. Of course he spoke out against the church, because he hated the church. Martin Luther spoke out against the church as well. He also hated the hierarchy of the church. Would you then say that Martin Luther wasn’t a Christian. Hitler never denounced Jesus; as a matter of fact he saw Jesus as a liberator and the Jews as the killers of the liberator. Cherry picking quotes from Hitler taken out of context does not prove the point you are trying to make.
Anytime something is printed that threatens the fragile egos of some Christians they immediately go on the offensive to discredit the messenger. Hitler wasn’t a Christian, Tom Delay is a god fearing man, George Bush is born again (bigger pain in the ass the second time around), Republicans are the party of family values (oh yea, the Republicans are degenerates and crooks, but the Democrats are even worse). Instead of acknowleging the fact that organized religion is the cause of most of the worlds strife, genocide, and wars you look to distance yourself from the perverted leaders who perpetrate these crimes in the name of religion. “Oh, he wasn’t a real Christian.” When I hear Billy Graham’s son (forgot his name) fanning the flames of hate against Muslims I see the same hate as spewed by Hitler. I hope you’re saying that he is not a real Christian. Falwell and Robertson are the same. Yea, but they aren’t real Christians.
Nobody is implying that any of you guys are Hitler lovers. Nobody is implying that you agreed with what he did. But why in HELL can’t you admit that he was one of yours. Every bushel has some rotten apples, but any way you want to look at it – they are all apples in that basket.
Looks like Henry was absolutely right. Answer not a fool in his folly…
October 5, 2006 @ 9:19 pmRoger,
Whatever Luther said is of no consequence, I follow Christ not Luther and I think I speak for most of the people in here…
Jesus was a Jew!!!! so how in the world can a true Christian (a follower of Christ) hate the Jews? A follower of Christ does not hate anyone, did not Jesus say to “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you?” yeah that sounds real hateful to me…
Hitler obviously hated the Jews among other groups of people (Christians included, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the name Corrie ten Boom, a Christian woman who was sent to a concentration camp and lived to tell about it) so I don’t believe he was a follower of Christ.
October 5, 2006 @ 10:17 pmForget the world, I can’t wait (for an answer)…
Since receiving some ‘monastic’, albeit solid advice from Henry “Leave the politics to Satan” Frueh, I have tried my best to steer clear of politics and its practitioners but I couldn’t help myself this time.
October 5, 2006 @ 10:42 pmToday October…
To be a little more light in my view of politics, it is like professional wrestling – sometimes entertaining but never real. Martin Luther was indeed anti-semetic but it was a residue he learned from the Roman Church.
An unregenerate person can never seriously be in a “who is a Christian” discussion. He must remain in the “Who is Jesus” class until he passes that test. The finals are looming, Roger, and all your self satisfying verbal minutia will add up to grave consequences. Forget about Hitler, et. al., WHO DO YOU SAY JESUS IS?
October 6, 2006 @ 6:44 amGreat point Henry, that question is way more important than “who is a Christian?”
October 6, 2006 @ 7:11 amHenry,
Luther’s anti-semetism was not just Catholic hold-over, but also part of the ‘replacement theology’ held in regards to the covenant.
Roger,
The travesty of the Third Reich and the Holocaust of the Jews was in no way an enactment of Hitler’s “Christianity” (which he never claimed). Being born a Roman Catholic and dedicated as an infant does not make one “Christian” – one must claim Christ as their authority to be a Christian. In the same way, one might be born a Jew, but that does not make him or her religiously Jewish unless they claim the promises of YHWH and the authority of his Torah.
However, there was a huge Christian culpability in the Shoah because many Christians sat idly by, and many nations with Christian values sat idly by and did nothing until their own lives were threatened (and some, not even then). Others, like Corrie Ten Boom (mentioned above), were persecuted for not being complicit to Hitler’s crimes. But that’s the rub – Hitler’s Third Reich and the Holocaust were politically motivated acts, not religious ones (like the Crusades or the Inquisition – which were both un-Christlike acts performed in His name).
There have been a number of “rotten apples”, as you refer to them, in Christianity – from the Crusades to the Inquisition to the pedarast priests in recent news. Hitler, however, was never one of them, because he never claimed Christ (at least in what has been documented, pretty thoroughly, I might add).
October 6, 2006 @ 7:17 amRoger,
Why can’t I admit Hitler was a Christian? Because he wasn’t. He simply wasn’t. He was a young man who went to church in his youth and was baptized. A lot like you, he grew up and had no use for the church. He hated the Catholic hierarchy, but he hated the protestants more.
Frankly, if you can read the quotes above and come to the conclusion that Hitler believed in Jesus, you’re just dreaming. He clearly had contempt for the church and considered it a lie that would die off under the assault of science. Isn’t that pretty much what you believe, BTW?
Hitler wasn’t a Christian and the final solution was an application of evolutionary theory, not the Bible. Again, here are his words from Mein Kampf which make this obvious:
You’re the one in denial, Roger. Hitler was as much a Christian as you are.
October 6, 2006 @ 9:37 amHenry asks, “WHO DO YOU SAY JESUS IS”.? That’s an easy answer Henry, and since you remind me that the finals are looming, I really appreciate the fact that it will be an easy test. Henry, there ain’t no Jesus, and never was one. When you flush your faith down the big crapper there is absoluterly no historical evidence left for the existence of a historical Jesus.
October 6, 2006 @ 9:50 amFor thousands of years Pagans had also followed a Son of God. In Egypt he was Osiris, in Greece Dionysus, in Asia Minor Attis, in Syria Adonis, In Italy Bacchus, in Persia Mithras. Virgin births, deaths, resurrections, baptisms, born in a cave or humble surroundings, ritual meals of bread and wine, and the list goes on for the Pagan Gods. Since the early Christian gnostics knew that the Jesus story was nothing more than a myth it was necessary to burn or destroy any traces of the gnostics writings to keep perpetuating this myth. Jesus is nothing more than Christianities version of a Pagan God. What is most interesting is how the Christians co-opted all the Pagan ceremonies and rituals to fit their needs. Couldn’t they have at least showed a little originality. The winter solstice really fit well with the time line for the birth of their savior, just like all the other Pagan religions. The manipulators (clergy) of primitive societies could sell this crap to an uneducated superstitious fearful populace. We are not a primitive society anymore, Henry and by now you should have learned that the laws of the universe are constant and not subject to being turned on or off by the Gods or your prayers.
Roger,
did it ever occur to you that these Pagan myths pointed to the real deal? CS Lewis has a treatise on this in his book, “Miracles”.
Btw, if Jesus didn’t exist how do you explain non-Christian sources saying otherwise? Josephus and Tacitus are 2 names that come to mind
October 6, 2006 @ 9:59 amHe should be banned, he is exhibitibg the spirit of anti-christ and using your blog to amuse himself by blaspheming.
October 6, 2006 @ 10:05 amHello Scott,
October 6, 2006 @ 10:09 amEvolutionary science and Christianity have existed side by side for years without the either/or. My dad was an industrial chemist who gave up his job in the private sector to become a chemistry and physics teacher. He loved his science and he loved his Christianity. As a practicing Christian he didn’t see any contradictions in the two. Neither did Hitler.
Your warrior God of the old testament was some mean som-bit (clarification, if you need it) and killed thousands of people who pissed him off. Wiping out a complete city and allowing the winners to claim the virgins as booty would be something acceptable to Hitler.
Roger,
Well, we’re in agreement in a way. It is possible to believe in evolutionary science and be a Christian. Your dad sounds like quite a smart guy.
However Hitler does not see it this way. He says Christianity is a lie which will eventually be wiped out by the truth of science:
This would suggest (to a rational person) that Hitler does see a conflict. Furthermore, he is not neutral with regard to the outcome of this conflict. He believes Christianity is destined to be the loser and he is not in the least upset about this eventuality. Christianity will be the loser because — according to Hitler — it is a lie. Science will be the winner because it is the truth. This is not the coexistence exhibited by your father.
I hope we can all agree that the dividing line between those who are Christians and those who are not involves whether or not one has faith. Even most atheists recognize this. That is in fact the dividing line set out in the Bible. Are you a beliver or a disbeliever? Do you have faith or not?
So how can Hitler or any man be a Christian and also believe Christianity is a lie? It’s not a capricious rewriting of history as you suggest, it’s just common sense. You can’t be a believer and a dis-believer at the same time.
But one could — for the benefit of public consumption — pretend to have faith in that which he believes to be a lie. This is precisely what Hitler did. He believed science and a certain kind of materialism were the truth. Note again his statement about the separation between organic and inorganic. He was not a Christian but made efforts to keep this fact obscure.
October 6, 2006 @ 10:53 amHenry, you are one scary dude. “He should be banned, he is exhibiting the spirit of anti-christ and using your blog to amuse himself by blaspheming.” I’m sure everyone is anxiously awaiting Henry’s “final solution”. Oops, should’t use those words. Let me guess– could it be reenacting the blasphemy laws, burning at the stake, the rack, stoning, how about hacking, heh, what about waterboarding, that sounds like a real good one. I don’t know where you came from, Henry, but it is obvious that your mind is still in the middle ages.
October 6, 2006 @ 11:42 amActually Henry was quoting from 1 John (well I don’t know about the banning part), so he goes back a bit before the middle ages…
“By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.”
October 6, 2006 @ 12:07 pm— 1 John 4:2-3
Roger,
There are a lot of things Henry and I disagree on, but whether or not we disagree, I believe he and I are both covered by Jesus’ mercy. In the case of “banning” you, I would disagree with the reasons given, though if it seems you’re disagreeing just to disagree, I might support such a notion. For the same reason John hasn’t banned Ken I would think he wouldn’t ban you – being open in discussion is far better at exposing falsehood than when you create an echo chamber or partial-echo chamber (like Slice).
While I realize we have long since passed the point where Godwin’s Law has come into effect, I will make one more attempt to address the “Hitler” issue you seem to be stuck on.
1) Raising the issue of Hitler in the first place is just a boogeyman – fictitious at its core, and weak in comparison. It is the same as the right-wing folks who saw Clinton as trying to bring communism to America. It is an attempt, albeit a weak one, at a guilt-by-association attack when the “association” part of the attack is incredibly weak.
2) Hitler’s ambitions were driven by religion no more than Hirohito’s or Stalin’s or Mao’s. Wars are most often propogated on issues of economy and power, with ideology and religion as gilded cover at best. Even the Crusades were issues of economy and power – the Pope was looking to alleviate civil war within Europe from sons of nobility with little land to inherit and too many other sons of nobility to go around. A series of crusades to the Holy Lands werea cynical way to deal with the issue. However, it can be said that the Crusades were fought far more over a religious ideology than Hitler ever tried to justify.
3) Nazi Mysticism, which grew out of Hitler’s programs, intrests and ideosynchracies, has no roots at all in Christianiaty.
_______________________
Quotes from Hitler and his closest advisors:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. – Hitler, October 10, 1941
October 6, 2006 @ 12:27 pmJust to settle this. We only ban spam.
We’ve been cursed out before. We still don’t ban anyone. We figure, hey, if someone who disagrees with us wants to uncork and make a complete ass of him/herself in public — have at it! Seriously, we’re all for it. Please leave your incoherent rant here where we will make sure it remains forever enshrined as a monument to your weak argument and character.
As for Roger, he can be abrasive (he can also be pretty friendly) but he’s not crude. And while I obviously disagree with it, his perspective is a valid one. He has thought about this and has reasons for what he believes. He’s not some nutball.
From this particular discussion, it appears to me that the “Hitler was a Christian” meme may be one of his reasons. That would certainly explain why he’s so dead set against seeing the obvious, i.e. Christians do not pine for the demise of their own faith. It’s an absurd position to defend.
October 6, 2006 @ 2:05 pmJohn – I can appreciate your open forum policy even for crass coments. But this is not just crass, the following statement doesn’t come from a seeker but from a spirit and should not be allowed to voice its opinion here.
“I really appreciate the fact that it will be an easy test. Henry, there ain’t no Jesus, and never was one. When you flush your faith down the big crapper there is absoluterly no historical evidence left for the existence of a historical Jesus”.
That is the open spirit of antichrist, period.
October 6, 2006 @ 2:16 pmRoger says,
“When I hear Billy Graham’s son (forgot his name) fanning the flames of hate against Muslims I see the same hate as spewed by Hitler.”
Have you checked out how Franklin Graham’s organization Samaritan’s Purse reaches out in mercy to Muslims, for example, recently in Lebanon?
October 6, 2006 @ 2:58 pmRoger,
October 6, 2006 @ 3:10 pmWhy is it so important to you to contend that Hitler was a Christian? Are you so very sure you don’t believe in God? To so adamantly contend that Hitler was a Christian as you are doing could indicate a deep hatred towards God.
Henry,
That comment in particular is also absurdly ahistorical (though his rant about Osiris and Mithra was basically accurate, except for the Gnostic part which sounded like something he got from the DaVinci Code). But we don’t ban anyone for stating their opinion.
The way I see it, God operates his kingdom on the foundation of human freedom. We can argue for our positions in the agora, but we never compel. Charlemagne aside, we don’t convert people by the sword, as Islam apparently teaches. Repentance requires freedom.
So demanding that Roger honor Jesus is a kind of compulsion that serves no purpose. It wouldn’t change him and it’s not how God operates anyway.
October 6, 2006 @ 3:38 pmHenry,
Couldn’t a person speak “from a spirit” at some point in their life, and at some future point turn to God?
Also are people who will one day belong to God always people who have “seeker” attitudes? Take Paul for example . . .
October 6, 2006 @ 4:21 pmJohn,
I am with you on this one ie. the banning issue. I knew a bit about Calvin and practically nothing about Armenius before I started reading Christian blogs. What I knew was Christ crucified for me (and for all mankind). So I try to see everyone I come across as someone Christ died for, whose sin has (potentiallly) been paid for at Calvary, more so when you meet them across cyberspace. I know people who have said stuff similar to what Roger writes here who have later come to a saving knowledge of our Lord. Come to think of it I was a scoffer myself in times past.
In my opinion there should be no rush here to declare anyone as having “the spirit of the Antichrist” and therefore beyond redemption. As for banning, let that be the trademark other websites and blogs. I didn’t hang around SLICE long enough to get banned. I was not a frequent commenter there anyway and as soon as I saw that well reasoned comments and questions were being censored I saw the danger signs and I bailed out. Call me a coward
Roger,
The Kingdom of God being established in this present world through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ may appear “small” at this time but it is certainly big enough for one more. None of us professing Christians (John, Henry and Scott included) is anywhere near perfect but that is an indictment on us and not on our Lord Jesus Christ. As someone has said, “we can always make room for one more hypocrite”
-Robbo
PS. yes John, I still lurk around here everyday looking out for your posts on doctrinal issues and the Faith we share.
October 6, 2006 @ 4:32 pmAmy – Yes, but they are not given an open forum, not to ask questions, but to propagate their wicked opinions.
John – Acts 13:8 – …seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
And with that God struck him blind. Paul rebuked the spirits that tried to honor he and Barnabas. And even Jesus exorcized demons, but never did he converse with them. There comes a line to be drawn, or do you not have a line? I believe that Roger has significantly crossed the line, he is not interested in exchange, he is set on blaspheming our Lord which the New Testament NEVER puts into honest exchange.
I realize that it goes against your grain, and I also appreciate your allowing debate, but we should never allow Jesus to be blasphemed openly from someone who you have given a long leash already. Disagreement, yes. Blasphemy, no. II John commands us not to receive one who doesn’t bring “this doctrine” into your house(blog). What doctrine is John referring to? Verses 7-9 tells us it is the doctrine that Jesus is not come in the flesh.
I believe this is serious and we disobey our Lord even in a well meaning attempt to reach someone, although I don’t understand how the Hitler thing and some of the other issues positively affect anyone. But even the goofy Hitler statements don’t come close to the open blasphemy of Jesus Himself. I would rather allow a person, unregenerate, to post comments that included the f word than allow what Roger has posted and I guess you read and allowed. It is offensive to the Holy Spirit and it is serious. Sorry, I feel strongly about this.
October 6, 2006 @ 4:48 pmWow. I guess I have riled a few feathers. As much as I disagree with John’s and Scott’s political views I have a great deall of respect for them. They are obviously well read and godly , good people. I am also a good person, good husband (my wife told me), a good father (my kids tell me they love me all the time) and a great grandfather (the kids love me and like to be with me) and I can assure you that I am not the anti-Christ. Everybody knows the anti-Christ is Pat Robertson.
October 6, 2006 @ 6:36 pmAs much as I disagree with John and Scott the one constant is that we truly love those close to us and are trying to make this a better world. They believe in a God who is everywhere and I believe in a God that is within me. I’m sure we all know people who have the devil in them, as well.
There is no question that I can be crude and condescending at times. I am not generally crude – irreverant, yes. When I comment on this blog it is usually in the tone of the author I am responding to. When someone I respect (not always agree with) is called a dimwit or an idiot then the tone has been set and I often respond in kind.
I don’t respond to all of the stuff posted by Scott and John because some of it is of no interest to me. Being an old codger who is well traveled and has experienced much in life I obviously have opinions on a wide variety of topics. I am also a great listener and look forward to learning something new everyday. I don’t claim to know Hitler’s mind or anyone elses mind. I am just as well read on Hitler as anyone else here. I also spent a year and a half as the American Youth Activities Director in the early 60′s in Kitzingen, Germany. My book keeper was a wonderful old man who was broken by the war. He lost family members in the war and acknowledged his activities as a member of the Nazi Party. The biggest burden he bore was the shame he felt for having been a supporter of Hitler. We spent many days having lunch together and talking. He was a practicing Roman Catholic all his life. I get the impression that some of you would not consider him a Christian because he had been a Nazi supporter. Is it safe to say that some of you sinners are good Christians but when you succumb to tempations that you are no longer Christians. You then ask God to forgive you and ,shazzam, you are Christians again.
There are times when I read some of the comments on this blog and it sounds like a love fest. Quotes from scripture abound. Aren’t we just the sweetest, most wonderful people who just love Jesus so much. I just know he loves me too. He must love me because I pray so hard and I just love living my life as his servant. God, I am so good! For some reason this open adoration and “heh, look at me and how pious I am”, doesn’t come across as genuine. My religious friends never talk their religion – they live it as they perceive how God wants them to live it.
Some times I wonder if Henry, Laz, Amy and Chris even have a pulse, but after one of my posts – I’d love to take their pulse and blood pressure. Please don’t ban me! Pleeaasse!
Roger,
Henry did not call you the anti-christ, at least not in his responses in this post (Henry correct me if I’m wrong)
Your religious friends comment was very interesting… Who said that talking about one’s faith and living it are mutually exclusive? Are we only to do one or the other?
so you’re not religious huh? You don’t have a set of beliefs that you live your life by? Isn’t religion defined by a set of beliefs that one adheres to? You believe in a god who is within you, isn’t that a religious belief?
Last time I checked I had a pulse and it remains steady after one of your posts, why? Because reading your posts is like reading something I would have said about 3 years ago. It doesn’t anger me at all but it does sadden me and makes me grateful to God for what He has done.
October 6, 2006 @ 8:45 pmHello Laz,
October 7, 2006 @ 4:53 amI am happy that you are happy with where you are in life. I have never tried to outdo anyone in happiness land so we won’t compare ours to see who is highest on the happiness scale. Your happiness does not make me sad. If you were unhappy three years ago and are happy now I am thrilled. We need more happy people because it makes everyone around them happier.
Your implication that I don’t have a set of beliefs to live by kind of bugs me. I know that it was in the form of a question, but to put it in the form of a question would imply the possibility that it may be true. I am a humanist and everything that I believe in is built on the foundation of doing good for my fellow man.
I have had bumps in the road at times as we all do, but I can truthfuly say that I have stepped in crap many times and come up smelling like a rose. I was happy as a luke warm Christian (in name only, as some would describe it) but found greater happiness when I dumped Christianity. The analogy, as I see it, Christians are waiting at the bus stop; some days it is raining, cold and miserable, somedays it is sunny and just glorious. They keep hoping that the bus will come, but it hasn’t. But it will. They know it will. For the humanist – if the bus comes, we’ll come out of the comfortable house and get on and go shopping. If we miss the bus, we’ll take the car or call a cab. We’ll even offer you a ride so you don’t have to stay out there in the cold. You see, we know the bus ain’t comming. How do we know this? Because it has never come before and a reasonable man knows that hoping it comes isn’t going to make it happen. Nobody has ever seen the bus, although some people know people who have seen the bus.
Do you agree that Pat Robertson could be the anti-Christ?
Roger seems to be an older man with too much time on his hands and articulate enough to draw others into useless and sometimes profane dicussions on his terms and the spirit that operates in him.
Roger – while others may play your game about Hitler, Pat Robertson, and bus stops, the Holy Spirit is having none of it. He lovingly but forcefully calls you to repentance and to become a believing follower of the Master, Jesus the Christ. He who has ears to hear, let him hear what God’s Spirit is saying…
October 7, 2006 @ 8:02 amHello Henry,
October 7, 2006 @ 9:22 amIt is people like you who make my day. I am a relatively harmless guy who is not the least bit threatening to most people. However, since you are the only one perceptive enough to see that the anti-Christ is lurking in my soul I understand why you feel that it is necessary to expose me.
I’m sure you are as benign as I am; however, people like Jon Stewart, Bill Mahar and Steven Colbert love guys like you. Do you remember the Church Lady on Saturday Night Live? Comedians love religion, rather I should say religious nuts, because it is the funniest genre. You are a comedians delight. Everything you put to paper invites satire and derision. Keep those cards and letters coming. By the way, I think you are a mole operating undercover for Slice?
No, you are not a “relatively harmeless guy”, you are a condescending liar that emulates your father.
October 7, 2006 @ 9:27 amCome on Henry, admit that you are from Slice.
October 7, 2006 @ 9:40 amRoger,
None of your comments have ever made my pulse go up. It’s interesting that you brought such a thing up, because my pulse does go up when I read things sometimes, and my hands start shaking so much that I have a hard time typing. In several cases it’s been reading judgements by those who call themselves Christians who start saying that such and such a person can NEVER ever come to Christ because their fruits show that God has already brought them into judgement. (For example, I’ve seen this sort of statement made about homosexuals, and about Jews.)
I wouldn’t have noticed the statement Henry pointed out in any special way because it’s in line with your identifying yourself as an atheist. But I respect Henry for not being afraid to say what he believes.
For myself, last week at church I asked for prayer for you. I hope that doesn’t make you angry – it wasn’t something that was easy to do, to ask for prayer for someone out there in cyberspace; but I did. When God has me pray for someone I find it difficult to believe that there’s no hope for them (sorry if my viewing your present state as hopeless offends you, but that is in line with Scripture, which I follow.)
I’ve been wondering, do you have perhaps a tiny, tiny speck of doubt in your belief that there is no God? I’m asking because I know that even Christians who have been given the Holy Spirit go through periods of doubt, thinking, “Can it all be true? Is there really a heaven? How could God possibly love me? ” I just think if Christians, who have the Holy Spirit, can still at times have these doubts about their beliefs, surely an atheist can have doubts about their beliefs? It seems logical.
But I suppose what could keep a reasonable,logical person from every doubting their certainty that there is no God would be if they are completely blinded by Satan. What do you think?
Are you certain enough about what you believe (that there is no God) to teach your great-grandchildren that there is no God? What if you’re wrong? What if there really is a God and heaven, and Satan and hell?
October 7, 2006 @ 10:40 amRoger,
I’m sure your “Please don’t ban me! Pleeaasse!” comment was meant as sarcasm, but those words concern me more than most things you’ve written in this thread
Sarcasm usually reveals truth.
October 7, 2006 @ 11:07 amRoger said,
No, Roger, it is not “safe to say that…”.
Consider it this way- When a child does something that disgraces the parent, it does not change who they are in their relationship. The child will need to learn a lesson, through discipline, compassion, and guidance, on the parent’s end. Through all this, the child should experience guilt, understanding of where the parent is coming from, and the will to make better choices the next time.
This is not different that our relationship with God. We will disgrace him, offend him, and rebel against Him, but ultimately He is our Father and we are His children. Our actions can not change this.
October 7, 2006 @ 11:29 amRoger,
Happiness? Who said anything about happiness? Actually 3 years ago I was happier but it was really an illusion, like the one you find yourself in. Being absolutely sure that the ‘bus won’t come’ is a belief because quite honestly you can’t EVER know for sure can you? It is called a BUS stop after all is it not? Assuming that Jesus will not return is just that an assumption. You can’t prove by ‘reason’ or ‘logic’ that it won’t (or will) happen for that matter.
I didn’t imply that you didn’t have a set of beliefs, I invite you to reread what I wrote. I know you do because you stated earlier that your god is within you. That looks like a belief system to me. In fact what I did imply is that WE ALL are religious and to say that one is not and others aren’t is quite incorrect. For what is religion if not a set of beliefs about the nature of the universe? We all have them man.
To label an individual the antichrist is quite presumptous for we can’t possibly know at this time who he is. Calling Robertson the antichrist betrays the same asinine fatuity when someone calls you or me the antichrist.
October 7, 2006 @ 11:45 amHello Amy,
October 7, 2006 @ 12:10 pmMy comments about your pulse was not to be taken seriously. You sound like a gentle sweet person who is probably used to receiving compliments by the truck loads. My attempts at humor are in no way to be construed as an insult. Please accept my apology if it offended you.
You may have noticed that Henry is like a voracious fish when I throw bait. He jumps on it like a great white shark and swallows it hook, line and sinker. Since you have observed that I have a rather irreverant sense of humor, you must have also gathered that I am a provocateur (is that how you spell that big word) and am trying to have some fun. Much of my sarcasm gets misdirected and I apologize to the folks whose pulses were offended by me.
BUT NOT YOU HENRY!!!! I know you’re coming for me and I’m waiting for you.!!!!!!!
Look out Amy.
Lk.6:26 – Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you! For so did their fathers to the false prophets.
October 7, 2006 @ 12:15 pmHello Amy,
October 7, 2006 @ 1:42 pmI don’t think that I really addressed the issues you raised. I could never be angry with you or any person for praying for me. That is the most loving thing that a person can do for another person. It is the ultimate in the expression of ones humanity. Although I personally believe that prayer is an exercise in futility I am pleased that you have the inner beauty to care about another human being. I generally tell those that I love that I will be thinking of them. I’ll pray for you or I’ll be thinking of you can be, and often is, nothing more than a cliche. A visit, a phone call, flowers, a box of candy, a book or a kiss on the cheek usually means more to those who are hurting.
Your question about whether I have even a tiny speck of doubt about God’s existence, is one I have been asked many times. When I was masquerading as a Christian I had so much doubt. I thought their must be a God but he had to be a lot different from the one depicted in the Christian churches. I began studying religion strictly from a historical and rational point of view. I do not claim to be a religious scholar but I expect that next year I will know a lot more than I know this year. I am alway reading and trying to absorb knowledge. The more knowledge I gain the more sure I am of the overall absurdity of organized religion. Is there anything good that I see in religion? Sure. Prayer as a form of meditation has only positive benefits for the body. Prayer to ask for something seems so self centered. Am I searching for something missing in my life. Absolutely not. I have absolutely no belief in a God as perceived by earthlings. Should there be a higher power than mother nature I am absolutely certain that she will not be as vindictive, petty and cruel as the God of the Abrahamic religions. Amy, there is not a speck of doubt in my mind. Even if there were a God, she would not be sending her children to HELL. Mothers love their children. A man can never experience what a woman and mother knows and feels. The Christian God is a man. If there is a God it would have to be a woman. If you think I am engaging in my usual goofy humor, I’m not. If you are a mother you know I’m probably right.
Roger,
Regarding your last comment about “If there is a God it would have to be a woman.” One time in my life I literally “felt” the love of God. This was after going through a terrible experience overseas. I have tried to explain what I felt to people, and know that I can never truly explain it. But this is what I use for an explanation. “If one could create the love that a mother feels when nursing her newborn child, and surround themselves with it, that creation would be of the same essence as the love that I felt from God.
Regarding prayer, intercessory prayer is letting God place on your heart what to pray for. Sometimes it’s ideas, sometimes it’s words, sometimes it’s a heavy burden that one can’t fully understand. I have a relative who received many prayers from those who loved her. I wish that she could talk to you, and tell you what her life was like, and how God has so graciously forgiven her and brought her back to him.
Only God can give one the faith to know that their prayers are reaching Him. He has done that for me.
October 8, 2006 @ 11:19 amHenry,
You said, “Look out Amy.
Lk.6:26 – Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you! For so did their fathers to the false prophets. ”
I appreciated Roger’s comments to me because I haven’t tried to communicate harshness to him. So I’m glad that he hasn’t mistaken my “tone of voice.” Neither have I failed from speaking the truth to him.
I don’t know you, and you don’t know me, so who’s to say why we’re having such a different reaction to Roger. I think that there is a time to speak harshly to people, and a time when God may have a person have nothing to do with someone else. I have no interest in winning favor from Roger. The way I act towards him is simply because of what I feel in my heart. I think that God is perfectly capable of letting me know if I should do anything differently.
There are times when it’s God’s will for a person to act in such a way that a person doesn’t think well of them. I have personally met people who I believe were under the control of evil spirits. For example, when I was overseas one time, the kids told me someone was coming to the door. Believe it or not I began feeling physically weak before I even knew who was at the door. I opened the door to find a cult missionary on my doorstep. Her “helper” was from the national group for which we were there to do a bible translation. The cult missionary told me that “It’s okay, we essentially believe the same thing.” I looked at the national lady, who I knew was being deceived, and I really started feeling bad, and could barely stand up. When the cult missionary asked me why, I told her something like, “Because I believe you are coming from Satan.” She left my house not thinking well of me at all.
But in other situations I have been with unbelievers, people who want nothing to do with God and Jesus. I have had non-believing friends of another major religion who call me sister, and even “best friend.” If they are at some point ready to receive the gospel, I will know that I’ve put no stumblingblock in their way.
God doesn’t say, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel, except to those who blaspheme His name.”
October 8, 2006 @ 11:44 amRoger,
Why do you feel that you have to attribute a male or female character to God. Why couldn’t God (who is spirit, so neither male nor female, by the way) have the best attributes of a man and a woman?
October 8, 2006 @ 2:31 pmHello Amy,
October 8, 2006 @ 3:52 pmIt is very easy for me to see that you are a gentle person. I believe that you could never harbor ill will towards anyone, even though you could be in complete disagreement with their belief and life style. The world would be a better place with more people like you.
When I indicated that Henry is one scary dude it is because he casts this auro of a narrow minded zealot. Generally these kind don’t have a sense of humor and haven’t the foggiest idea of when they are being baited. In the middle ages he would have been the executioner or the enforcer of the blasphemy laws. Fortunately we are a little more enlightened today.
Hello Tim,
The old testament is as scary a piece of literature as is Henry. The God of the Old Testament was a male warrior God who would put Ghengis Khan to shame. The violence and vengence of the Old Testament could not depict a motherly person in charge. Having a kind and gentle mother who had the patience to raise five boys without and angry and violent bone in her body as well as having three daughters who are gentle and loving mothers tells me that females are the superior gender. If there were a God he would not put the inferior gender in charge. The Abrahamic religions are male dominated and steeped in violence.
Dinners ready – got to go.
Tim,
October 9, 2006 @ 7:09 amI agree. The good qualities that we see in man, and the good qualities that we see in woman, mirror the image of God.
Marvin Olasky wrote a column titled, “Were Nazis Christians, are Christians fascists?” which I think is relevant to what was being discussed here…
October 12, 2006 @ 7:53 amsorry here’s the link:
http://townhall.com/Columnists/MarvinOlasky/2006/10/12/were_nazis_christians_are_christians_fascists
October 12, 2006 @ 7:53 am