Making Toddlers Cry to Show You Love Kids
John on July 28, 2006 at 2:32 pm
That appears to be the reasoning behind photographer Jill Greenberg’s new exhibition of kids crying inconsolably. She explains in her press release for the show:
The first little boy I shot, Liam, suddenly became hysterically upset. It reminded me of helplessness and anger I feel about our current political and social situation. The most dangerous fundamentalists aren’t just waging war in Iraq; they’re attacking evolution, blocking medical research and ignoring the environment. It’s as if they believe the apocalyptic End Time is near, therefore protecting the earth and future of our children is futile.
Jill assures us that no kids were harmed in the making of these photos. She would simply give them a lollipop and then take it away and let them cry. Well, okay, I’m sure the kids won’t be permanently scarred, but there is a certain strangeness to a photographer who wants to do this all day as a political statement.I wonder about Jill Greenberg. Who wants to make little kids miserable for art?
In Elementary school, there was always that one kid who liked pulling the legs off spiders. It made you wonder what kind of home life he had. Similarly, I wonder about Jill Greenberg. Who wants to make little kids miserable for art? Even if it’s just a lollipop, the point is the kids are really upset. As adults, we know that they’re going to have to learn to handle disappointment in life. But these kids are two.
I’m not calling for Greenberg to go to jail, but I’ll say this. I have two girls, one of them now two. If someone came up to her on the street and offered her a lollipop then took it away from her and snapped a picture of her crying…Well, let’s just say the camera would have to surgically removed from his posterior. It’s one thing to teach kids self-control and discipline in the natural course of events. It’s another to stage their misery for your own aggrandizement (and get paid for it).
Apparently, though, Jill’s like-minded friends are thrilled to have their kids involved in ART! Sorry ladies. Shakespeare is art. Raphael is art. This crap is just tertiary stage Bush Derangement Syndrome with a side of Christian bashing.
Finally, it’s worth noting that Jill and her husband have gone after Thomas Hawks, the blogger who brought this all to light, going so far as to call his employer (who has no relation to his blog) and try to get him fired. Did I mention that Jill Greenberg is a “free speech advocate?” I love the comments by one of the leftist art lovers in the first thread above:
The people complaining here are probably also the ones who breed the screaming monsters that plague us in every public venue.
Just don’t question their patriotism…oops. I mean their love for kids.
[HT: Malkin]
Category: Absurd & Outrageous |
First, I very strongly disagree with what Greenberg did. On the other hand, I wonder how many conservatives rushed home from the game after berating their 10-year-olds for missing the fly ball or (probably in Texas) the pass to condemn her. I read that one of the things Greenberg did to get kids to cry was to ask their parents to step out of the room. Now, children have to learn be without mom and dad. We can’t spoil them by making them think mom and dad should be at their beck and call. So, I suggest the next time Greenberg ask the parents to come back in and hit them with a small switch, which should get her even better pictures. That’s what John Rosemond advised the parents of a 3-year-old who would not stop getting out of bed to do. Rosemond said the child kept getting out of bed because he was lonely, and that was Rosemond’s solution. The next morning explain children need their sleep; therefore, you hit him because you love him. (Nothing is more relaxing, or brings sweeter dreams, than a stinging pain in the behind.) Yes, sir, this nurturing and sensitive attitude toward children is typical of the right. They are the greatest allies of the child protective services, provied that bunch of meddlesome, do-gooder liberals isn’t going after some red-neck teacher who has paddled an 8-year-old’s behind black and blue for saying two words out of turn in class. It’s funny to watch conservatives “rob banks” and then vehemently denounce those who “pick pockets.”
BTW, I don’t have children; and I don’t know how important it is to keep a lonely 3-year-old in bed alone. But, from the nanny TV shows, I know that can be done without beating their behinds, with a small switch or anything else.
August 6, 2006 @ 8:37 pmR,
I’d never heard of John Rosemond. Is he a Christian? It’s not clear from the bio on his website. In any case, I think you’re being a bit unfair to conservatives. From everything I’ve seen, conservatives are more likely to have kids and tend to have more kids. Also, according to a recent study, evangelicals tend to be excellent fathers. My co-blogger Scott wrote about it here.
That said, I agree with you on this specific recommendation. I have a good friend who had this problem with his boy. He practiced the put-back method, which required him to calmly return his son to his bed each time he got up. He had to do this up to 30 times for several nights in a row until his son got the message.
It’s a lot harder to be the right kind of parent when you actually have kids than when you’re dealing in the realm of theory. I don’t mean that as a slight. It’s simply my experience. Parenting will test you to the limit of your patience and endurance. Sometimes beyond. Every parent I know has, at times, had to set their child in a crib and simply walk away to maintain sanity.
August 6, 2006 @ 9:09 pmJohn. Sorry it took a little while to get back here. Am I being a bit unfair to conservatives? No. Am I being unfair to John Rosemond. I think so! I picked up one of James Dobson’s books the other day, and I now think it was JAMES DOBSON who gave the “little switch” advice. My local paper alternates Rosemond’s and DOBSON’s columns. And I got them confused. So, I am rather sure that IT WAS JAMES DOBSON WHO GAVE THE ADVICE TO USE A SMALL SWITCH ON A LONELY 3-YEAR-OLD WHO WOULDN’T STOP GETTING OUT OF BED. As I said, I picked up one of JAMES DOBSON’s books, and that advice is consistent with what Dobson wrote in The Strong-Willed Child:
From pages 62 and 63. Copyright 1978 by James Dobson. Publish by Tyndale House in 1985 and republished by Living Books in 1997.
I don’t have conscious memory of anything from when I was two years old. I do remember that on the night before my seventh birthday, my parents let me watch a movie about the Ku Klux Klan with them. When I went to bed, I found out that it had freaked me out. (And, of course, I didn’t really know what the Klan was at that time.) You know kids, monsters under the bed and robbed Klansmen at the window. I was just scared and I wanted the protection and comfort of a parent–which I imagine is what a lot of toddlers also want when they just can’t stay in bed. What I got in the early morning of my seventh birthday was a whipping.
If you consider the practice of Dobson’s advice to be, at least, on par with Greenberg’s practice, I am not being at all unfair to conservatives. It is they who have supported James Dobson for more than thirty years; in fact, they’ve made (and given) him millions.
They also make this child abuser a potent political force. The roll of James Dobson and his toddler switching Focus on the Family groupies in the 2004 election is now well known. Now, the conservatives are trying to make political hay out of Greenberg. Well, not all liberal are perfect and not all Democrats are perfect. But the Republican Party is rotten at its base.
Which, based in no small part upon experience, is the biggest reason why I chose not to have children. Unlike James Dobson and his millions of narcissistic groupies, I thought that was the better solution to not having to deal with children who have the gall to behave as if they were children .
Yes, Rosemond is a Christian, whatever that means to him; and saying that Dobson instead of Rosemond said or did something is like saying Jessie James knocked over X bank instead of Billy-the-Kid. Still, I will give myself one swat with a small switch.
There is a cultural war going on in this country, and the good guys are losing.
August 29, 2006 @ 11:25 amR,
There is a place for corporal punishment. The vast majority of parents who spank (myself included) are not child abusers. The reality is that children do behave like children. Part of that is having no self-control and often little ability to think of the needs of others besides themselves. In practice, this means that they will sometimes howl like banshees if a parent refuses to buy them candy in the grocery store.
At other times it will mean that they will sometimes refuse to obey parental commands that are in their best interest, such as “You have to hold my hand when we’re in the street.” In these cases, it is simply not enough to ask a child sweetly to reconsider. The parent has a responsibility to enforce rules for the child’s own safety. There are many such rulses and they must be enforced in a timely manner.
And finally, there are times when they will simply lash out in open defiance. For instance, my daughter once was told to go lie down in her room (a time out) because she was crying about a grave injustice: having to eat her peas in order to get a treat. In response to being told to go to her room, she told her mother, “I hate you” and spit on the ground at her feet. She is five. A child, but plenty old enough to know that this is unacceptable.
Now in each of these cases most parents would respond differently. In the first case of the whining at the grocery store, the punishment is to simply leave the store. I have also had to do this at a restaraunt. The child needs to learn that she or he is not in control of every situation. The needs of others (to buy groceries for the family) also matter. Removing them physically is one way to demonstrate this.
In the second case of rules for safety, it is necessary to back up the rules with force. When a child intentionally pulls away and runs into the street (at my house) she gets a swat on the hand or bottom. These are rules which a child must obey. We can discuss them only so long as the child complies with them, not while they are running into a parking lot full of cars.
Finally, in the case of open rebellion against parental authority, my kids get an immediate spanking. I have seen the children of parents who behave this way and are never corrected. They do not turn out well. A child who is allowed to behave in this way at home is destined for failure in school, at work and in life in general.
The bottom line is that children are not so innocent as you seem to think. Self-discipline and thinking of others are not natural inclinations for the vast majority of kids. Sometimes a firm line has to be drawn. Spanking is always the last thing I resort to, but at times I believe it is appropriate and necessary.
Finally, I have to laugh at your reference to “James Dobson and his millions of narcissistic groupies” by which you mean parents. Parents tend to be the least narcissistic people in any society. Anyone who has had a child will tell you that the #1 lesson for every new parent is “I never realized I was so selfish.” Kids make you aware just how much that’s true as they force you to truly make someone else a priority over your own wants and desires, usually for the first time.
By contrast, someone who decides not to have children so as not to have to deal with the stress and struggle that entails has in fact chosen a path which ensures nothing will interfere with their main goal in life — meeting their own needs. Narcissism is a problem, but childless couples are far, far more guilty of it than parents. Of that I am certain.
August 29, 2006 @ 2:30 pmJohn, nice to see you back. I look forward to talking about some things with you. At this time, I just noticed this:
You know kids, monsters under the bed and robbed Klansmen at the window.
One might argue Klansmen have been robbed of something. However, when I was seven, I was scared of robed Klansmen at the window. You know the robes and hood they wear to cover their identity–and to make them look like ghosts. If my parents had taken the time to figure out what was bothering me and explained that it was unlikely any Klansmen would show up at the house of a suburban white boy, I might have slept better. (But there has never been a time when I was not disturbed by the Klan’s actions.)
Now I have to get ready for work.
August 30, 2006 @ 4:30 amR,
You wuz robbed! I didn’t notice. I frequently make spelling mistakes in my first draft. It’s inevitable when you write 500-1000 words a day.
No doubt the clan are a scary bunch. I had a similar reaction to seeing Jaws when I was 7. Couldn’t sleep at all that night. I think you’ll admit it was far more likely the Klan would show up at your house in the suburbs than it was that a Great White shark would show up at mine.
August 30, 2006 @ 10:15 amJohn,
First, you want to turn this into a discussion about corporal punishment, in general. That is not what it is. This discussion is about the application of corporal punishment to a toddler who won’t stay in bed. And I very much doubt the cause is willful defiance, as James Dobson believes it to be. At its roots, I think it probably has to do with what made the tots cry when Greenberg asked their parents to step out of the room. Also, it wasn’t all that long ago that even adults prayed things like “From ghoulies and ghosties And long-leggedy beasties And things that go bump in the night, Good Lord, deliver us! …” In fact, Dobson himself talks about how his son was “absolutely terrified” by the wolf that stalked the three little pigs when he took him Disneyland at age three. And how even after they returned home his son repeatedly needed to be told about the nice man in the wolf suit.
(Dobson even has “a priceless motion picture of him scrambling for the safety of his mother’s arms.” Disney tickets, fifty dollars. A motion picture of my screaming three-year-old frightened out of his wits priceless.)
And not only is Dobson inflicting emotional suffering, necessary or otherwise, on these toddlers but he is adding physical pain. And even you have agreed that that physical pain is unnecessary:
Therefore, if one wants to classify Jill Greenberg as a child abuser (and I am willing to so, a minor child abuser but a child abuser nevertheless), it seems Dobson must also be classed as a child abuser. (And I unequivocally class him as such.) And so are his many followers.
Next, let me say here that the fact I have never had children does not mean (1) that I was not a child or (2) that I have never been around children. As I said my decision not have children was due, in large part, to experience. During the ’80’s recession, I lived with a nephew, whose father kept getting laid off, from the time he was few months old until after he turned six. When was two he watched a Sesame Street that described a family as mother, a father, and a child. My nephew wanted to know why they forgot to include me and the other person in the house.
Now, we had some bleary days when my nephew was a baby. But as a tot he slept through the night. Therefore, I can’t speak from much observation about toddler sleep problems. I will, however, bet that smacking li’l John with a switch will get him stay put and shut up quicker than just picking him up and putting him in bed time and time again. I’m sure that li’l John will rather quickly become more terrified of mommy and her looming switch than whatever was bothering him in the first place–which John, being a toddler is ill equipped to articulate or possibly even to comprehend. But I’ll bet li’l John will be the worse for wear.
“Finally, I have to laugh at your reference to ‘James Dobson and his millions of narcissistic groupies’ by which you mean parents.”
By which I mean parents who, among other things, follow the advice to switch a toddler, whom they brought into the world or chose to adopt, who has a sleep problem in order to serve their convenience first and to confirm their leadership–to lead where? (I vanquished my toddler today. I am so mighty!) They, of course, can tell themselves whatever they want. By groupies I mean parents who would actually join an organization run by this man and give him money.
“The bottom line is that children are not so innocent as you seem to think.”
There’s more I’d like to respond to. But I have to say, “to be continued.” Among other things, I’ll tell you about how I was the subject of my nephew’s first lie and how a five-year-old cousin ,who was a guest in my house, tried to kick me in the crotch.
August 30, 2006 @ 7:54 pmNo doubt the clan are a scary bunch. I had a similar reaction to seeing Jaws when I was 7. Couldn’t sleep at all that night. I think you’ll admit it was far more likely the Klan would show up at your house in the suburbs than it was that a Great White shark would show up at mine.
Ah, didn’t hit refresh.
Land Shark! :-)
August 30, 2006 @ 7:59 pmR,
Using a switch is a form of corporal punishment. So I do think it’s hard to discuss the topic without discussing the topic.
Some people, Dobson included, believe it is preferable to use something like a belt, a switch, etc. rather than a hand. The thinking is that the fear is associated with the object more than with the mom or dad.
Again, I don’t use such a method, but I dont’ think there’s really any difference between that and spanking on the hand or butt, both of which I have done many times. The put down method would be my preference for something like what you’re describing, but I still believe spanking is beneficial in some situations. If I didn’t I wouldn’t do it.
My daughter has gone through weeks where she’ll get out of bed every night at midnight and come wake my wife and I. We tolerate it once or twice, but it becomes obvious that what started as a sleep problem quickly becomes a bad habit. We usually let my daughter know that if she does it again, she’ll have to take a nap the next day to “practice sleeping.” That’s usually enough. Still there have been times when she will wake us up two or three times in a night. By the third one, I let her know that the next time there will be a spanking. Of course if she’s sick or scared that’s different. But trust me, you can tell when it’s genuine and when it’s a boundary test. One thing about kids — especially your own — they haven’t learned to lie very well.
Kids push the boundaries. That’s what they do. They do it all day long. If they get out of bed once because they’re scared it immediately occurs to them to do it again. You may not believe that, but you’ll have to take my word for it. Kids are always looking for an angle. Sometimes it’s just cute to watch. But if you don’t enforce some rules and warn them of consequences for breaking the rules, the inmates quickly take over the asylum. With two parents who work taking care of two kids sans daycare, you can’t allow that to happen. Discipline is good for the kids and the family. Sometimes, in my view, corporal punishment is necessary to make that happen. Again, not a first resort and not something I enjoy but I think kids have to learn that they must obey. That’s something that just doesn’t come naturally to them.
I will say, I spank my youngest much less than I did my oldest. In fact about the only thing we spank her for is intentionally hurting her sister. I think as you get more confident as a parent, spanking can be used primarily as a threat. You don’t actually have to do it very often. You also learn some self-control. You’re able to tolerate a lot more the second time around.
The bad parents aren’t the followers of Dobson. They may be wrong in certain instances, but they tend to be highly engaged and family oriented. There’s a reason that most of the pre-schools in my city are run by churches. The parents of those kids really care to see them succeed. Many of them are the same people who might listen to Dobson or read his book. They’re good people by and large.
If you can do it better than Dobson, more power to you. IMHO, the bad parents are the ones that either don’t care or actively don’t like kids. I don’t know you, R, but it seems to me that someone who is so concerned for children would tend to be someone more likely to make a good parent. Perhaps your bad experiences have left you fearful of failure. I know my wife and I waited 10 years to have kids. We both came from divorced homes. We both saw a lot of yelling and screaming. We both have families that don’t speak to each other. We wanted to break the cycle and for a long time we thought “not having kids” was the best way to do that.
All I can say is I’m glad God brought some people into our lives that showed us how it could be. That despite the trying moments (which can be excruciating), it can still be rewarding and wonderful. Some of the best moments my wife and I have these days is sharing stories about what the kids did each day.
My life would be a lot easier without them, but I’m certian I wouldn’t smile as much. There’s nothing like having a two year old scream DADDY! when you walk in the door. And how much they love you, great as it is, is nothing compared to how you feel about them. I would go so far as to say, you don’t fully know what love is until you have a child. Maybe it’s not the same for eveyone, but that is my experience.
But I await your crotch-kicking story!
August 30, 2006 @ 11:16 pm“But I await your crotch-kicking story!”
Well, I might as well get that out of the way first. There’s not really not much to tell really.
Some years ago, a cousin of mine and her two girls, ages five and four, came for a vist. One day, the five-year-old was pulling leaves off a tree. When I thought the yard had enough leaves on it, I told her I thought she should stop. She disagreed. I told her she needed to stop, and she smacked me in the belly. It was all I could do to keep from laughing. She asked me if it hurt, and I told her no. I also told her but it wasn’t very polite. And she smacked me again. That had the same effect. I wasn’t in a laughing mood, but it felt as is a fly had landed. Well, that got her good and frustrated. Therefore, son of gun, surprise, she tried to kick me it crotch! Then her little sister decided to get in on the “fun.” So, I actually had two little girls try to crotch kick me.
Next: It was just after Christmas, and we still had Christmas treats out in the kitchen. I was sitting in the living room chatting with my sister and my brother-in-law. As we were talking, my 3-year-old nephew comes out of the kitchen with a cookie. My sister stops him and asks what he’s doing with a cookie. My nephew thinks fast, but not fast enough. What he comes up with is Uncle said he could have a cookie. My sister then informed him there were two problems with his story: (a) I know Uncle wouldn’t tell you could have a cookie without checking with me. (b) Uncle has been sitting with us the whole time.
BTW, that’s what I was reminded of during one of the 2004 presidential debates when George W. Bush vehemently denied that he’d never said he didn’t care where Ossama Bin Laden was. But seconds after the debate ended, the network air a tape of him rather arrogantly saying just that, in so many words, to a reporter.
In any event:
“Using a switch is a form of corporal punishment. So I do think it’s hard to discuss the topic without discussing the topic.”
By your reasoning, it seems, the way Greeberg should have shot her pictures was to have the parents bring the children in and tell them to cry. If they did, fine. If not, mom or dad would administer corporal punishment for failing to obey.
Oh, before I forget, I have to say this in response to the following: “I have two girls, one of them now two. If someone came up to her on the street and offered her a lollipop then took it away from her and snapped a picture of her crying…” If someone comes up to your daughter and gives her a lollipop, under most circumstances, I strongly suggest that you take it away.
If you’ll be so kind as to allow me another one or two posts I’ll try to add what I think needs to be added to the discussion. Then I will get off your board and out of you hair.
August 31, 2006 @ 8:16 pmYou know they may look the way I wanted it to. What I mean is that I know John has more things to do than go back and forth on one article. It is also his blog, and I acknowlege that John is allowing me the privilege of posting to it. I also appreciate the fact that he is letting the posts stay up. It sure looks like Malkin pulled the one I posted on her blog. I also appreciate the exchanges we’ve had.
As I was saying before I closed the wrong window. (Grr.)
I suppose children do wake mom and dad up for reasons other then they’re scared or sick. But the “money question” for me is: will the child be so scared of a spanking that he or she will not wake mom or dad when it becomes necessary.
In my first comment I wrote the following in response to what I believe is the mostly right-wing call to have child protective services take action in the Greenberg case.
Well, I haven’t had a chance to go looking for bruised bottoms. I do recall a torn-up bottom I saw on a news show and how a rural Ohio jury acquitted the teacher who was responsible.
I did quickly find the following, which is not about a teacher:
Let’s hope she’s one of those lawyers who sticks it to bad corporations.
Of course, anyone can be what they want and say what they want on the ‘Net. But this seems typical.
September 1, 2006 @ 6:18 pmA few of you mentioned the involvement of child welfare which reminded me of a church member who was raising a granddaughter. He gave her the “woodshed” and the next day at school she showed her scars to a teacher and guidance counselor. Those Yentas sent DSS to the grand’s house and he said: Anyone living in my house, eating my food, and using my utilities will obey my rules or get the switch and if you don’t like it you can come in and get some too!” The girl got the “woodshed” again for telling it and DSS never came back. Today the granddad is dead and the girl is now an attorney in MA. Spare the rod, spoil the child!
This, btw, is part of thread that is here:
September 1, 2006 @ 6:22 pmR,
Most of the parents I know spank their children on occasion. None of them use a switch or anything else. None of them look forward to it. We do it in hope that we can prevent future bad behavior which could harm the child or allow the child to harm someone else (such as hitting a sister with a block of wood).
The heart you have for kids is a father’s heart. Every father I know feels that exact same feeling of wanting to protect his children from injustice and unnecesary pain.
A good example: One of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do as a father was take my 18 month old to her doctor’s appointment and hold her while she got 4 shots in a row. She begged me to take her out of there (she was a good talker already). She looked at me with tearful, pleading eyes. And I knew there was no way I cold explain it to her. As an adult I knew this was for her own good. She needed these shots for school. They would protect her for years to come and others around her as well. But four years later I swear to you I can remember a strong feeling of wanting to pummel the male nurse into a heap for hurting my baby.
In a similar way, I believe the greatest danger to children both in the short run and the long run is often themselves. Whether it’s running out into the street or spitting in the face of authorities — if not corrected kids become unruly, narcissistic monsters…and there are only so many acting jobs in Hollywood.
I love my kids. That’s why this lady’s pictures disgust me. It’s hard enough to make a kid cry (even if it’s just witholding candy) when you know it’s for their own good (such as when they haven’t eaten their dinner). Making a child miserable for a stupid picture designed to elevate your own name and make you some money in the process…That’s just repulsive to me.
September 1, 2006 @ 11:18 pm