This Just In – God REQUIRES Sunday Evening Church Services
Scott on January 21, 2009 at 9:07 pm
You heard it right, and to be clear, I’ll say it again – God REQUIRES Sunday Evening Church Services. This shocking requirement was made public by Ingrid over at Slice of Laodicea. Here is the text of her short and to-the-point posting:
The shambolic state of evangelicalism (I do not call it Christianity any longer) is best described by pointing readers to Cornerstone Church in Chandler, Arizona where Charlie Brown appeared on “stage” at Christmas and the 5pm service on February 1 is canceled because the gods of the NFL take precedence over the God of the Bible.
Forget the slam on evangelicalism and the dig at Charlie Brown. Let’s get to the REALLY important issue: this church in Arizona has cancelled their Sunday evening service because it is Superbowl Sunday. I wonder if she made the connection that the ARIZONA Cardinals are playing the Pittsburgh Steelers in the Superbowl -and- the church is IN ARIZONA? Maybe that’s beside the point. Anyway, here’s the church’s website ad:
I am not sure that this poor church was aware of the fact that by doing what they have done, they have declared their allegiance to “the gods of the NFL” and have turned their back on the God of the Bible.
Hmmm. Come to think of it, I guess I am not aware of it either. Maybe I am confused.
Is Ingrid saying that churches are REQUIRED to have Sunday evening services, thus if a church cancels one they have gone down the road of apostasy? Or is she saying that churches have choices, but that once a church decides to HAVE a Sunday night service, they must always have that service? Is that somewhere in Leviticus or maybe in Romans? Is Ingrid saying that there are no good reasons to EVER cancel a church service, morning or evening? If that is the case, I wonder if one can ever cancel mid-week choir practice and/or Bible study?
Or maybe it is just football that Ingrid disapproves of? Maybe it would be OK if the Sunday night off was connected to a sport that was less offensive, like hockey or curling or skeet shooting…or cricket?!?
Or maybe Ingrid just objects to people doing anything fun or enjoying themselves on “the Lord’s Day” (or any day for that matter).
I’m just saying…
Category: Religion & Faith |
I was told an interesting story about the origins of the evening service. Strangely, it’s not Biblical in origin – it’s technological.
When electricity was a very new and impressive thing, when electric lighting was something that most people didn’t have in their houses, churches were one of the first places to get electrical lighting. The evening service was a showpiece, to draw people in to marvel at the feat of light without flames.
I’m sure Ingrid is equally in favour of innovation and technology in the church today!
January 22, 2009 @ 3:20 amI think the absolute essential necessary to call yourself a New Testament church is to espouse a complimentarian point of view. I’m sure Ingrid agrees.
BTW – how dare someone go to church for two measley hours on Sunday and claim to love Jesus! I’m sure Ingrid’s church worships from sunup to sundown every Sunday.
January 22, 2009 @ 4:58 amBTW – I must give a shout out to Ingrid for her use of the word “shambolic“. I believe it is the first time I have ever seen that word in print. As a pretending English lit major I love it!
January 22, 2009 @ 6:24 am[...] Ragan offers a contrary opinion regarding Sunday night services on Super Bowl Sunday. “I am not sure that this poor church [...]
January 22, 2009 @ 9:34 amI think you guys are being deliberately obtuse. Ingrid wasn’t saying that Sunday evening church services are required by God – that’s ridiculous.
What she was saying (and I wholeheartedly agree) is that for a church to cancel a regularly scheduled service because of a football game or any other secular activity says alot about the focus of the church.
My Baptist church has Sunday evening services and Wednesday prayer service. We have, very rarely, had to cancel these services (mainly due to weather – and once because half the membership was ill with a virus). Attendance at these services in certainly NOT REQUIRED (again, that would be ridiculous and legalistic – as a matter of fact, they are usually poorly attended); however, if we ever canceled a service because of a football game, I’d be looking for another church.
January 22, 2009 @ 11:59 amMaybe you wouldn’t have to look for another church? Maybe you could host some worship and study at your house instead?
January 22, 2009 @ 12:17 pmCarol,
When I think of “obtuse” I typically think of someone who is lacking sensibility or intelligence (stupid) -or- insensitive -or- maybe unclear in their reasoning.
If that is what you mean, I don’t think I am being stupid or demonstrating a lack of sensibility.
Is my tongue planted firmly in my cheek? Yes. Am I using a bit of sarcasm to make a point? You bet.
But being deliberately thick/slow/stupid or deliberately insensitive to a larger issue…I don’t think so.
Without knowing anything about the church, the membership, or the staff, Ingrid throws one of her spiritual molotov cocktails out into the ether and thinks she shouldn’t feel any of the heat from the blast. Sorry, but that is just wrong.
I have contacted the church in question but have not heard anything back yet, but I would not be surprised to find out that Ingrid made no attempt to contact them and to inquire about their rationale that lead to the decision. Since she lives half a country away, isn’t it rather presumptuous of her to pass judgment about a church and their decisions without having any additional information?
If you were to go to the church’s website and check out
their calendar, you would find a church that has a calendar that is packed with opportunities for its members to worship, learn, grow and serve within the church and outside in the community. It doesn’t appear to be a church of slackers who are just itching to find an excuse to ditch doing church on a particular night.
Being that the Superbowl is a HUGE national event, and given that one of the two teams is from Arizona, why is it such a huge deal if they want to provide members with the opportunity to enjoy/engage without missing something at church that night? How does it say a lot about the focus of the church if they decide to cancel a single evening service? As near as I can tell (after spending about 15 minutes on their site), they don’t make a regular habit of canceling events or services, but they DO make a habit of feeding their people A LOT and they provide A LOT of opportunities for all sorts of engagement with their faith and with ministering to the community.
I can’t help but wonder how well Ingrid’s church would stack up if placed side by side with this one.
You acknowledge that attendance at the supplemental services (my term) is not required at your church. You even acknowledge that attendance at these supplemental events/activities is low. So why would you be upset if the leadership of the church chose to cancel a SINGLE, non-essential, non-required, poorly attended service?
I don’t mean to be overly offensive, Carol. Your contributions here are always insightful and thoughtful and sincerely grounded in faith. But it seems that you are placing the structure of the church programs and your own personal preferences above the actual spiritual content and health/well-being of the church. Why else would you say your would look for another church if they did ONE THING that you disagreed with? What about following the leadership of the church which, if you are attending there, you have agreed to follow as well?
Now, I think it would be different if there was a series of decisions like this one that might make you (or Ingrid) question the spiritual priorities and maturity of the church leadership; but a one time decision cannot be used to extrapolate a judgment on an entire church body.
January 22, 2009 @ 12:51 pmSunday night services are a relatively new phenomenon and when practiced enough it becomes a tradition rather than a Biblical guideline. Personally, with the invention of tevo I still believe they could do both.
Ingrid will have much more credibility when she criticizes John MacArthur for his hedonistic “Christian” cruises.
January 22, 2009 @ 2:25 pmI’m with Ingrid on this one. If I worked Sindays and could only make the evening service and didn’t care a lick about football, where does that leave me? I lose out on an opportunity to worship God because of a football game?
January 22, 2009 @ 4:52 pmOr you can worship and study at home, with some like-minded nerdy sissies who don’t like football?
January 22, 2009 @ 5:10 pm“You observe days and months and times and years, I am afraid of you lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain”.
“He that regards the day regards it unto the Lord, and he that doesn’t regard the day unto the Lord he doesn’t regard it”.
To make any day the “law” is a return to the “beggerly elements”.
January 22, 2009 @ 5:44 pmJim, what if there were a ton of churches everywhere and you could find a different one in which to worship that night? Oh wait, there are.
Does she just surf the web, waiting for someone to punk?
January 22, 2009 @ 11:21 pmJim, you honestly don’t strike me as someone who would be so easily beaten in your desire to worship God. Necessity is the mother of invention and you seem like a pretty resourceful guy. I can’t believe that you wouldn’t phone around, find a bunch of likeminded folks and get something organised with a Superbowl-Free-Zone theme or similar. Sit at home and mope? I don’t buy it.
January 23, 2009 @ 8:13 amI tell you Ingrid, I’m with you 109%!!!
What about those disciples who were in the fields picking grain on the sabbath, desecrating the carefully constructed and GOD ORDAINED Holy day that He claimed as His own!!!
I mean, come on, they should’ve been in synagogue or something! There’s not excuse for fellowshipping on the sabbath, we’re to be in reverence and awe of God the entire day to the exclusion of our fellow man. None of this paling around and building relationships with people. God doesn’t want that happening on Sunday at all.
January 23, 2009 @ 11:39 amI think worship has a more profound meaning Keith when you gather with those that you regularly fellowship with. Searching for another church is a solution, but not preferable. Actually, I went to this pastor’s website and got a whiff of one of his sermons. His arrogance is unfortuante. He makes the SP at our old church look timid. Frankly, cancelling all Sunday servies and pointing those in his body to other churches would be the better solution.
January 23, 2009 @ 6:31 pmJim,
I don’t think Keith disagrees with you about worship. I think the point is that if you felt strongly about not missing church on that SINGLE Sunday evening, then you could find someplace else to visit and fellowship. Isn’t that what you do on vacations when you are away from home on Sundays – ask around or look around and find someplace else to get fed and/or to worship?
I do have to ask about the “whiff” you got of one of his sermons. Because of your comment I went through and listened to his whole sermon “Being Open to God in 2009.” I don’t detect a “whiff” of arrogance. He isn’t the best or the worst that I’ve ever heard. He’s not the most insightful, nor is he the most shallow.
I guess what I am saying is that your comment is really pointed and even judgmental about the pastor’s heart and his words. I’m curious if you could qualify your statement about his “arrogance.” I’m wondering what you are hearing that I am not.
January 23, 2009 @ 7:06 pmIn a pastor I can live with limited preaching s
January 23, 2009 @ 7:29 pmkjills, or not being visited in the hospital, or even some limited leadership skills, but I could never sit under arrogance.
Scott, I got his sermon excerpt from a link at Slice – his comments were drenched in arrogance (IMO). He certainly did not have the heart of a pastor or being a shepherd for his flock. Frankly, if I were a visitor, I would have gotten up and walked out of the service.
January 23, 2009 @ 8:18 pmScott, I just went back and took another look at a portion of one of his sermons. It’s how he delivers his message that I find offensive. His comments about not desiring to visit the sick in the hospital run 180 degrees to the pastor of my church (his reason about the guy following me has the bag you’re going out in is asinine). His “I don’t care” attitude actually clouds some of the truth that he is trying to teach. He’s combative, confrontational and arrogant. I think I’m disturbed by this video because I have had the privilege the last 6 months of sitting under the teaching of a pastor who models love and humility. Trust me, with this guys attitude, I wouldn’t want him to come visit me in the hospital. He has no interest in doing it, his heart is in the wrong place and I would probably feel worse after he left.
January 23, 2009 @ 8:34 pmJim, if your in the hospital on super bowl Sunday, he probably won’t visit you. Just an FYI, it is your job to visit the sick, not his. His only responsibility to visit the sick is that he is a Christ follower, not because he is a pastor.
TO gather all this from an excerpt provided by slice, whose goal is to nail this guy is really not a solid investigation. I might suggest you do some more research and listen to a few of his sermons, interview some of his people, gather some information about his background and find out if there are any other expressions of a shepherd he is modeling.
It is too easy to judge unbiblically by listening to a canned excerpt and not affording him the respect the bible says you should a pastor. To call into question his shepherding over an excerpt, well now that just doesn’t sound loving to me.
January 24, 2009 @ 10:40 amLeonard, I cannot tell you how many times a person has been comforted by a visit from their pastor when they are sick – and to be prayed for. Obviously, it is not the sole responsibility of the SP to do this. At one of my former churches where I was on staff, we had a minister of visitation who would visit the sick and pray with them. I guess the great flaw here is that the pastor was acting like Jesus and extending some love to a dying patient – what a crime. Incidentally, we had a plethora of non-ministerial folks also visit the sick – we didn’t believe that this responsibility was solely that of the ministerial staff.
By the way, I don’t need to listen to more of this guy – I’ve heard enough. His comment about the guy “following me has the bag you’re going out in” tells me all I need to know about the guy. No love, just a callous disregard for loving someone in his congregation who is sick. To use your words, “that just doesn’t sound loving to me.”
January 24, 2009 @ 10:54 amThe pastor’s words,
“You cannot imagine how much I do not care”
are careless and arrogant. God cares for His sheep regardless of how stubborn they may be, and in fact the Great Shepherd died for His enemies. I cannot imagine Jesus saying to the Father before the incarnation, “I know they are sinners of the highest order, our enemies indeed, but I cannot tell You how much I don’t care”.
Not a shepherd’s heart. That pastor could have lovingly taught his people of the limitations of being a pastor, especially the pastor of a large church. Instead he spoke carelessly and with a distinct air of arrogance.
January 24, 2009 @ 11:14 amWell said Rick. My point exactly.
January 24, 2009 @ 11:20 amI’ve not heard the sermon, but from what has been reported here those comments don’t sound very servant-hearted to me. I’d have to listen to some myself to say any more.
Still though, Jim – you just don’t seem like the kind of guy who resigns himself to defeat all that easily. If one service in your church was cancelled, and you eally wanted to worship then, you’d do something proactive about it. (Or should that be reactive?). That was all I was saying.
January 24, 2009 @ 12:17 pmJim, you don’t have to tell me. I am a pastor and have been in ministry over 25 years. you CANNOT know this guy by an excerpt form a sermon. That is simply not enough nor is it responsible to judge him on that basis.
You assume this guy has no pastors heart because of a comment that only has the context Slice provided. I would say if you do not want to investigate, then humbly withhold judgment. You obviously disagree with his decision concerning the church he pastors canceling an evening service for the Super Bowl. Fine, but you have now resorted to character attack on the basis of an excerpt of a sermon that Slice provided.
Lie I said, you did not investigate this at all. Did you interview his church people. did you discover if he has built a church that provides care for the sick. (the real job of a shepherd is to lead and equip his people to do the ministry) Did you interview his staff? Did you ever speak to him? did you try to get a context for his comments?
If responsible care and love are important to you; have you done this for your brother? That is before you called him arrogant, combative, lacking in a pastors heart, and having a heart in the wrong place…
January 24, 2009 @ 1:41 pmKeith, I’m not talking about me and what I would do if faced with such a dilemma. I’m talking about those whose main outlet for weekly corporate worship is the Sunday evening service.
Leonard, I could care less about your job in ministry – it doesn’t impress me. If you want to support this guy, go for it. I’d have nothing to do with him. I let the guys own words speak for themselves – he hangs himself with his callous and arrogant attitude. If you don’t like my opinion, then don’t read my post. End of story.
January 24, 2009 @ 2:16 pmWow Jim, thanks for caring less… I certainly was not trying to impress you. This is not about my support of this guy, it is about your attack on his character. This went from a disagreement about a service to an attack on his character and leadership.
What do you use to make this attack? An excerpt of a sermon chosen by slice. Why do you refuse to be held accountable for your words and attacks here? Why is it okay for you to attack a persons character but not do any real research?
“if you don’t like my opinion, then don’t read my post.”
Wow, thanks for that too. How about this, be humble and admit, I, Jim, do not have enough information to assault a brother in Christ’s character.
January 24, 2009 @ 2:37 pmI have the guys own words on which to base my judgment. “You don’t want me to visit you in the hospital because the guy following me in has the bag that your bodies going out in.” A real comforting pastor. I haven’t the time or interest to read more excerpts from this guy. It’s obvious that your his appointed apologist. Congratulations! If I heard a guy say, “Hitler was great”, I wouldn’t need to study his full body of work to make my determination that I wouldn’t dare step foot inside the guy’s church. Same thing here. His comment about visiting the sick, his arrogant tone, etc. give me all that I care to hear about. Maybe someone will get sick at his Super Bowl party and he can kick the guy out of his house so he doesn’t violate his “I don’t visit sick people” policy.
January 24, 2009 @ 2:58 pmHere is what your missing Jim, I am not defending him at all. I am confronting you. You have slammed this mans character publicly and attacked him personally. This has nothing to do with him, it has to do with you. So to try and shift the focus away by calling me his apologist (a discernment site tactic) is not working here.
This is not about a man who spoke of Hitler, this is a brother in Christ whom you have slammed and attacked based upon an excerpt of a message. You have determined his character, his quality of pastoring and his heart. That is not a small slam against a Christian, much less a christian leader.
When challenged that you have done so without any due process of investigation you bring up silly arguments about hitler. Try this. answer for me a few questions.
Did you publicly slam this mans character and his quality of shepherding?
Did you do any other CAREFUL investigation into this mans character other than listening to a excerpt of a sermon provided by a partial and biased ministry? (slice)
Is it biblical to slam someone, a brother publicly, without a careful examination of his character and ministry.
What you are saying is, Jim is justified in publicly slamming a brother in Christs character, ministry and heart on the basis of a biased excerpt. The justification is you do not “have the time or interest” in finding out if your correct.
Did you find out if this mans has a ministry that visits the sick? Do you know his spiritual gifts? Do you know of he had a family member die in a hospital and struggles? Do you know his name even? Can you even type his name without looking it up? Or are you just hell-bent on slamming people?
So unless you misunderstand. This is about you and your heart not about his… This is about you slamming a brother in Christ without a careful investigation. This is about you diverting the issue away from yourself instead of repenting and stopping your slamming.
If you are like ODM’s you wont answer the questions I ask, you will jab at me (self apointed apologist… I could care less about your job or ministry…) or you will come up with some extreme analogy… Hitler… and avoid accountability to biblical standards of loving your brother.
If you are like ODM’s you will say… I am defending the truth, Truth in love… Truth in love… and avoid simple responsibility of actual truth.
January 24, 2009 @ 3:41 pmLeonard – Did this pastor investigate all the parishoners he was slamming? Did he ask about their integrity, etc. when he suggested they find another church? Did he find out the spiritual gifts of all the ones he said he could care less what they think?
Sometimes I think I sense arrogance, sometimes I actually get a whif, but sometimes I am overwhelmed by that spirit. My comments were based upon the public comments of a pastor to his sheep. I do not see how those comments can be justified, even by suggesting he does other good things.
Arrogance is a pervasive poison which taints other good works.
January 24, 2009 @ 3:48 pmRick, but, did you listen to any of his sermons except for the segment provided at slice? That may be out of context and character. I’ve said some stuff, tongue in cheek, which, if taken literally, would make me out to be an ass. But I’ve always said it in the expectation of being taken in the context of my wider work. I still haven’t listened to this guys sermons, but I’d hate to think that that is happening to him.
January 24, 2009 @ 5:03 pmLeonard, I think Rick put a much better reply to your last post than anything I could come up with. I keep saying this to you but we’re not getting anywhere. The man’s own words are what I base my judgment on. I did not make up these words. The man’s arrogance in speaking these words are unmistakenly clear. If you want someone to repent, go send an email to that pastor and ask him to do some serious soul-searching about his attitude towards his congregation. And for heavens sakes, imagine what damage his diatribe did to someone who came to a Christian church for the first time in their life, only to hear his anger.
Finally, boy am I glad that I’m not a member of your congregation. Are you like this guy? Do you preach simliar sermons to your flock? Let me take a few minutes to direct some heat your way. Where do you get off defending someone like this character? What biblical grounds are you basing your defense of this man on? Since when is arrogance towards a pastor’s congregation a spiritual attribute? And you think I need to repent? Take the log out of your own eye pal before you try and clean my side of the street.
By the way, I rarely agree with the folks over at Slice. They usually go way “over the top” for my tastes. I visit their site becomes sometimes they do get it right. I visit “The Ooze”, a very liberal site, because sometimes they get stuff right. So whatever caricature you have in your head about me may need some rethinking.
January 24, 2009 @ 5:18 pmRick, your comment does not make sense to me Who did he slam? Did he say you guys are arrogant, you guys are… I did not hear that nor have I heard that from him.
Are the words he spoke being heard in the context for which he spoke them?
Jim says… Leonard I could care less about your job in ministry… out of context he sounds like a jerk. In context he is making a statement about how he is not impressed with what I do. You guys are slamming a guy for statements that have a much bigger context. That is wrong.
See Jim, I told you that you would say I was defending this guy. I am not, I am challenging you. it is wrong to slam someone for words out of context. We have to do better as Christians.
Attacking me Jim is not tha answer either. You might not like my church or you might, but to insinuate and get pissy over my ministry is nothing more than a 10 year old’s tactic.
I do not care if you listen to slice or not, your slamming came from a excerpt you heard on slice.
Stay focused Jim. You heard some words, did not get the context for the words, refuse to investigate this guys life or ministry and slam his character. That is wrong no matter how you present it.
January 24, 2009 @ 5:50 pmKeith – I reiterate my previous statement:
“My comments were based upon the public comments of a pastor to his sheep.”
I do not have the time nor inclination to invetigate the man’s ministry, only the segment published on the post. I do not condemn anything but those comments.
Leonard – from the video clip:
“Don’t ask me to come and eat at your home because I will not eat food that I don’t like and with people who make me uncomfortable”.
“People say, “My last pastor visited me in the hospital”. Well, go back to your last church. You don’t want me to visit you in the hospital because the guy behind me has the bag you’re leaving the room in”
“Here’s the problem, you think I care”.
“You think I give a rip about what you think about our music. You don’t understand how little I care”
*******************
What should have been said.
“We are a large church which means I as your pastor am called to feed you the Word, equip you for the ministry, and pray for you. But as much as I wish I could, I cannot visit in your home. And I know not everyone will like the music all the time, but I ask all of us to show some loving forbearance since God isn’t as interested in music style as He is in the worship of your heart. And we have people here who God has actually gifted in the ministry of hospital visitation. They will be a blessing to you and your family.”
January 24, 2009 @ 6:11 pmLeonard, the guy’s context from his statements were clear. He has limitations on what he can do as a pastor and that ultimate trust on someone must be given to Christ and Christ alone. How he said this was drenched in arrogance. I don’t need to investigate a guy’s life when he has his own words on the subject available for anyone to view. So I am not “slamming” him out of context – do you get that? Or it is your view that because he’s a pastor he’s above reproach?
January 24, 2009 @ 6:18 pmThe words spoken are not words that I would use. But they take me 3-4 minutes to say. In a 35-40 minute sermon they lie in context. In a community of faith they lie in context. In a region, place, area they lie in context. I think we could here those words and say, man I wouldn’t lie that. I am not comfortable with those words… but to say he is arrogant, has not shepherds heart, is combative…
There is a context for his words. Before you trash him, have the grace to at least find the context.
Again this is not about defending him. I assume you both are smart enough to know that words have context and that words taken out of context can be misunderstood and point us against each other.
Why are you guys so comfortable to judge and still refuse to discover the context of this man’s words.
January 24, 2009 @ 6:25 pmRick, thanks for posting the guys actual words. Leonard, you don’t have any problem with those words? Are you smoking your socks pal? As I stated previously, I would have gotten up and walked out of the church. I would also have prayed for any individual who’s first time in a church was that Sunday. I can’t imagine the damage those words did to a seeker of truth. But the bottom line is this – you see no problem with this guy’s approach Leonard? Did you see Rick’s biblical response on the limitations of a pastor and how those limitations could have been enunciated in a loving way?
January 24, 2009 @ 6:27 pmWe understand the man’s context Leonard. It doesn’t take a genius to figure it out. You’re hanging on to your straw man now that the actual words have been recited. You’re trying to defend the indefensible. Shame on you.
January 24, 2009 @ 6:34 pmJim, stay focused. Your losing it here. I am not defending his words. So put that away it is old and worn out now. I am saying you cannot possibly know this mans heart based upon 4 minutes.
You can say, I don’t like his words, I don’t like his tone, I don’t think I would like being in his church. but you cannot, based upon those words know if he is arrogant, if he is a jerk, if he has no pastors heart, if he is combative…
So shame me if you want, tell me I am building a straw man, but you are not able to defend attacking this man biblically.
January 24, 2009 @ 6:49 pmThe man’s attitude is not biblical! Is that difficult for you to figure out? Did Jesus ever address the sick in the way this man did? I see nothing of Jesus in the words that Rick has supplied us above. You can’t defend those words as godly instruction to his congregation on the limitations of a pastor’s time. I’m plenty focused Leonard. Focused on reality – come join me.
January 24, 2009 @ 7:02 pmLeonard – it is possible the man was having a bad day, or it was completely out of character, or even he might have been attacked by some members, let us all admit those and other possibilities.
My comment, and I believe Jim’s as well, ONLY addressed the video segment. His words in that video were careless and arrogant. That is all. I would have to listen to more to draw an expansive conclusion.
January 24, 2009 @ 7:38 pmRick, I understand that. but Jim went further than to say what you’re saying. I would not have said what he said and had I, I would have done so differently. But that is not a reason to call him names. To question his heart as a shepherd off of a 4 minute excerpt provided by slice is not enough to make such a statement. To slam his character based upon this is not enough.
To suggest that I am defending him or like him is just more of the same. I am not defending him, I am challenging you. If you cannot make that distinction then I am sorry. Please take a deep breath and focus Jim.
I asked you some questions you did not answer: will you please answer them. Here they are again.
Did you publicly slam this mans character and his quality of shepherding?
Did you do any other CAREFUL investigation into this mans character other than listening to a excerpt of a sermon provided by a partial and biased ministry? (slice)
Is it biblical to slam someone, a brother publicly, without a careful examination of his character and ministry.
I realize Jim you more than likely won’t answer these questions but I thought I would try again.
January 24, 2009 @ 7:58 pmSee Rick’s reply in post #41. Other than that, it’s DFTT time.
January 24, 2009 @ 8:54 pmJim,
January 24, 2009 @ 10:35 pmI knew you wouldn’t answer those questions. You call people a troll who simply want you to give a straight answer. I am no troll, I just want an actual direct answer to the questions I asked. Not twisting, not attacks, not name calling. Just a straight answer. Too much to ask I guess.
Sorry guys, looks like you are having a nice juicy exchange here. If you could excuse me while I cut in with my thoughts about the post, that would be greatly appreciated.
Anyway, my thought about this post is that it reminds me of a time back when I was in high school (it was a Catholic school). I was late for school one day, and I was called into the assistant principal’s office. He asked me, “Do you think there’s more to this than meets the eye?” I just said “No” and left it at that, because he was the assistant principal and I did not want to say anything that would get me in any worse trouble, but I found it offensive because it seemed to me that he was questioning my character and spiritual committment on a very basic level simply because of one time that I was late to school.
This is a similar situation. This church is having the quality of their committment to the things of God called into question simply because they chose to cancel their Sunday evening service one time this year. Not fair.
Okay guys, you can go back to your exchange now.
January 25, 2009 @ 1:08 amJim – a troll is not simply someone who disagrees with you and asks you awkward questions. A troll is someone who provokes a hostile reaction through their antagonistic and very possibly insincere posts. I get the impression Leonard is being sincere. I don’t see why you have a problem answering his questions.
January 25, 2009 @ 7:12 amKeith – that definition of a troll is postmodern. The true orthodox troll lives under a bridge and harrasses Billy Goat Gruff!
January 25, 2009 @ 7:36 amNow Rick, that was funny.
January 25, 2009 @ 8:20 amYeah, but that troll didn’t really mind if the goats crossed his bridge, he was just being unreasonable to provoke a reaction.
January 25, 2009 @ 9:32 amMy final statement here – Leonard, you have an overly inflated opinion of yourself to think that I am required to answer your questions. Let me offer you a few observations. The man is arrogant – is that clear. Go back and read his words. He did not act like Jesus in what He said. Is that clear. He violates 1Tim.3 and the qualifications for an elder in what was posted at Slice. Is that clear. Conclusion, based on what was posted, the man is arrogant and unfit for ministry. Call it a “slam”. I call it a fair analysis of what was posted. Will I investigate further into this man’s life to see if he’s a decent pastor. No. I have no desire to do this. Do I understand the context of his rant. Yes I do. Does that excuse his unbiblical behavior. No. Do his comments amount to sin. Yes. Does he need to repent of this sin. Yes.
Keith – I don’t need your clarification on DFTT. I’ve heard enough about it from you. The man won’t stop trying to get me to argue with him. I’m tiring of his constant provocations. DFTT, in my opinion, is warranted.
Have a great Sunday everyone.
January 25, 2009 @ 10:34 amOne final, final statement – LOL: The man needs to be brought before the board of elders for disciplining. He then needs to go to his congregation and apologize for the rant. Case closed. However, if this is the typical megachurch where the pastor is Pope and Holy Spirit, he may have no one with the biblical guts to call him on his sinful behavior. If that is the case, than the man has too much authority and not enough accountability.
January 25, 2009 @ 11:09 amJim,
I just wanted to chime in on a couple things…
First of all, I don’t think Leonard believes you are required to answer his questions. He is interacting with you on a blog. The nature of most blogs that are run honestly and openly is rooted in transparency and dialogue. Leonard seems to operating under the belief that this is an exchange…a dialogue if you will. From how I read this exchange, he felt you weren’t actually hearing or understanding what he was saying to you and/or asking you -OR- that you were ducking the questions.
I don’t see him as having an overly inflated opinion of himself. He was just wanting the dialogue to continue in a clearly defined direction along the lines of the the things he was asking you about.
And I do have to agree with Keith. Leonard doesn’t fit the definition of a troll. He doesn’t appear to be trying to goad you or antagonize you, nor has he been deliberately offensive and/or rude. Now, he is definitely arguing with you, but an argument does not a troll make, even a long, ongoing, energetic argument. To be clear, Roger is a troll. Leonard is just someone arguing a point of contention.
Of course, I haven’t actually seen Leonard, so he very well might be a gigantic, stoop-shouldered monster who dines on the flesh of his victims and who types on his laptop while living under a bridge that is close to a decent WiFi connection!
I do have to say as well that you were a wee bit harsh on Keith. What was this, “I’ve heard enough about it from you” stuff? It sounded as though you were an old gaffer shaking his cane at a recalcitrant 10 year old who has just run through his yard and disturbed the flower beds.
January 25, 2009 @ 11:16 amKeith has lectured me before on the DFTT stuff – it’s not the first time.
January 25, 2009 @ 11:18 amJim and Rick,
Do me a favor and point me to the message that you both seem to be referring to. Did you pull your quotes out of the Charlie Brown message (“Crush”) or out of a different one? I got 10 minutes into “Crush” and realized that you might have pulled your impressions and quotes from something different. I know you said you got to it from Slice, but Slice has tried to skewer this church multiple times, so I’m not sure which one to go to. The message I listened to completely was from the teaching pastor, not the lead pastor, and I got nothing from the teaching pastor’s message that comes even close to matching up with what you guys are talking about.
Thanks.
January 25, 2009 @ 11:20 amHere it is:
http://www.alittleleaven.com/2009/01/purpose-driven-hireling.html
January 25, 2009 @ 12:24 pmYou’ll see an arrogance Scott that will exceed what we went through at our last church. And I don’t care if it was for three minutes of a forty minute message. At my former church when I preached, if I ever uttered the words this guy did, I would be brought before the board of elders and disciplined. I would have been required to go before the congregation the next Sunday and ask for forgiveness. If I refused to carry this out, I would have been relieved of my ministerial duties. For this conviction, I am accused of slamming this pastor and questioning his ability to be a leader. I am told by Leonard that I need to repent. We must serve two different Lords. Mine washed the feet of his disciples and asked that they too be servants. He didn’t lord his position over them and berate them in an arrogant fashion. This man apparently has the freedom at his church to say these arrogant things without having to face the consequences for his actions. Again, if this is true, and his elders are spineless, then he has far too much power and not enough accountability.
January 25, 2009 @ 1:16 pmJim,
You may very well be right. Coming from our last church and having seen the damage that can be caused by an out-of-control leader and spineless elders -and/or- the damage that can be caused by a lack of elders and oversight can do to the body, I am not without sympathy towards your concerns.
But at the same time, I was taken aback by your withering attack against this pastor just like Leonard was. I mean, come on Jim. You and I know that we (you and I) are both guilty of being quick on the draw, lashing out and even going on the attack sometimes with very little thought to love, compassion, grace, etc. I would love to go back and erase the evidence of my harshness from this blog, and technically I could, but I wouldn’t do that because it would violate the transparency that John and I are trying to maintain here.
I’m not saying that you don’t have grounds to be wary of this pastor – his teaching, his attitude and his spirit. You might very well have reason to be concerned. But given that we are talking about a church, not a cult; and given that we are talking about a brother in Christ, not a Romans 1 kind-of-guy (godless, wicked, futile, foolish, dark-hearted, shameful, depraved, etc), I guess it seems that you came on really strong, especially based on a single clip from a single message on a single Sunday.
January 25, 2009 @ 1:46 pmBut I just find it hard to sit aside when you just don’t seem to get it. With Roger, it’s out of concern for you falling into a trap, and with Leonard it’s because I felt you were unjustly labelling him. I promise to try and make this the last time. But please, please, please, pretty please with cherries on the top, please stop feeding Roger’s troll.
FWIW, on this preacher, my gut tells me you may be right, but my reason tells me that someone deserves a more in depth hearing before the kind of verdict you passed on him.
Sometimes when someone disagrees with you in an argument, it can be to your benefit. You’ve done that with me before now. I think what Leonard is saying is actually an attempt to help you become a ‘better’ critic.
January 25, 2009 @ 2:31 pmWe will have to disagree on this one Scott. I doubt that his comments, drenched in arrogance, are an isolated incident. The fact that he can get away with making such statements without consequence (my assumption)is even more troubling. I think the real issue here is that the guy was criticized at Slice and many here at VS have had a long-running feud with the folks over there. Where I’ve done church and have been on staff, comments like what this guy made, would have resulted in discipline and an apology. That’s the least this guy could have offered. I doubt if one is coming – this could be the typical “idolatry” that evangelicals give to their guy who can fill up an auditorium.
January 25, 2009 @ 2:33 pmKeith, I promise you I have learned my lesson with Roger. I will not respond to the guy because he is as vile as they come and, at times, I reduce myself to his level.
January 25, 2009 @ 2:36 pmOne other thing I should mention Scott – we’ve all blown our stack here at VS and have said things that we regret. However, this is a completely different forum than being given the responsibility of the proclamation of the Word to a congregation. This is a responsibility that is given to an elder/teaching elder and they have qualifications for that office enunciated in 1Tim. that don’t apply to bloggers. So I can’t equate what is done here with a church office and the carryong out of that office in the form of preaching. That doesn’t justify any regrettable statements any of us have made here at VS. Christians can blow their stack here and come off arrogantly but an elder isn’t given that liberty when he’s in the pulpit.
January 25, 2009 @ 2:47 pmOne final note missing from above – when we blow our stacks here we should apologize to that person. That is a universal Christian precept.
January 25, 2009 @ 2:49 pmI have mastered the art of keeping my arrogance at bay, since that would be a natural result of my intellectual prowess. Many people have wondered at why I have absolutely no arrogance in the light of such cerebral justification. I usually reply that I have no idea what they are talking about, which of course is a blatant lie. :cool:
January 25, 2009 @ 3:54 pmReally, Rick? Me, TOO!!!!
Of course, I doubt that you have mastered the art as skillfully as I have, but you keep trying!
January 25, 2009 @ 4:34 pmScott,
I look more of a cross between a Hobit and a neadrathal man. It is a blessing and a curse. My poiint to Jim and Rick to some degree is that such harsh slamming, based upon an exerpt designed to impugn, is not an act of Christian discernment.
Jim I am sorry to have communicated to you a high opinion of myself. I did not intend that. I was simply trying to get a couple questions answered.
I am not defending the excerpt I heard as right, I am saying it was an excerpt. To be juded so harshly based upon that seems extreme.
Discernment and criticism can look an aweful lot alike. They can both point out faults, they can both shed light on an issue. However they distinguish themselves in a few ways.
Discernment seems to have a broken heart and a redemptive spirit. In other words discernement is mor concerned with making things right and a faithful and biblical process of getting things right.
Criticism is more interested in being right and pointing out what is wrong. Criticicm has no interest in healthy dialog. It does not wish to be challenged and when it is, it resorts to name calling.
Discernment, when healthy rarly minds dialog, in fact often welcoms dialog to make sure both truth and grace are repersented equally. Discernment goes the extra mile to make sure what is said is accurate and does not delight in confrontation.
Criticism stops investigating when its opinion is verified and then calls its opinion enough. It ha not interest in getting to the heart of the matter, rather delignts in being right.
Love does not delight in evil. We undertand this to mean love, loves what is pure. It could also be understood that love is discerning. Critical people delight in evil in that they are empowered by other peoples errors. Kind of like the media and why it cannot say anything positive over a sustained period. There is no power in that.
There is not in my opinion enough information on this pastor in the excerpt to be anything but criticism. A discerning person would be slow to speak, quick to listen and slow to anger. A discerning person would seek to understand both the person and the context.
A critical person starnts with a judgement and then verifies it as quickly as possible. Many ODM’s are nothing more than OCM’s On Line Criticism Ministries
Thanks for the exchange guys, and Jim again I apologize for the scratches you bear at the hands of leaders. As a leader in the church, harming people is not what we are to be about. I hope you can heal from these.
January 25, 2009 @ 6:41 pmI quick survey of my comments will reveal the exerpt was all I was commenting on.
January 25, 2009 @ 6:54 pmThanks for the discernment versus criticism lecture Leonard. I believe my criticism of this man’s rant is actually based on sound discernment.
January 25, 2009 @ 7:21 pmLeonard – one other thing. Do I discern in your lecture a critical spirit towards Slice? Maybe you can take your own advice then.
January 25, 2009 @ 7:37 pmOne last thing as I reread your condescending post Leonard – I hate to disappoint you, but I’m not healing from any scratches from any leader. I am a leader at my church, and if you’d read my previous posts you would have noticed the type of discipline my former church would have extended to me had I made the same staements that this pastor made in his sermon. I don’t care if the other thirty-five minutes was golden. Belittling people who seek to invite me over for dinner, refusing to visit the sick with a perverse statement about a body bag, etc. would have had me hauled before the Session with a demand that I apologize to the congregation the following week. Had this not have been done, I would have been removed from my position.
Bottom Line: You want to give this guy every break in the world. I’d like the guy to be held accountable for what he preaches in accordance with 1Tim.3.
January 25, 2009 @ 7:50 pmWow Jim, we just don’t seem to click. You say that I am trying to give this guy every break in the world. Not true. I have already said I would not have spoken this way and did not think it was the best use of his words. So to keep throwing that in my direction makes no sense to me.
I have repeatedly stated I am not defending his statement but you keep accusing me of this. I hope you can hear this. I AM NOT DEFENDING HIM. I WOULD NOT NOR DO I SPEAK THIS WAY TO MY CHURCH, nor do I think the tone was right.
I am simply on this board, a discussion forum trying to have a conversation. In a discussion poeple ask questions and exchange ideas. I have been trying to do that. I did not know that doing so meant I have too high of an opinion of myself. I am sorry I misread your comment about your last church and the struggle you went through there. I thought you meant you were hurt. You come across hurt to me.
I also apologize for coming across condescending to you. This was not my intention. You are not required to do anything here Jim. My opinion of myself would not be something you could discern from this exchange, nor am I demanding you answer my questions. I even said please. (you still did not answer them by the way) If you would like to know my opinion of myself you can ask me.
In the Blogging world it is easy to misread ones tone and words. It helps sometimes to know a tiny bit about a person.
I am married and have 2 teens. I spent 18 years in youth ministry before starting my first church. After 8 years there I was asked by another church to help pioneer their church planting process. For the past four years I have pastored one of those plants. I am deeply passionate about people knowing Christ. I travel to India where I equip pastors and missionaries to reach unreached people groups in Kashmir.
January 25, 2009 @ 10:22 pmBut, with the greatest respect, how do you know that didn’t happen? You don’t know, because you are closed to finding out – you have seen a wrong and are insisting upon your right to throw your stone, regardless of whether that wrong has been righted.
I say again, my instinct tells me you may be right about this guy. It seems that it’s not your conclusion that anyone is taking issue with, so much as your methods, but as much as people try to examine your methods, you defend your conclusion.
January 26, 2009 @ 2:56 amMay God bless you and keep you safe in this mission, and may the Spirit reach many souls.
January 26, 2009 @ 5:13 amI admit Keith, I’m a bull in a china shop. I’ll keep working on it. I know I annoy you to no end. That is not my intention.
January 26, 2009 @ 7:52 amIn the big picture Leonard, we’re on the same team. God bless you in yur efforts to spread the gospel.
January 26, 2009 @ 7:54 amThanks Jim and Rick. Lord willing, I will be back there this fall. We are building 8 churches. Each building is in a village where the mobile medical clinic we built traveled to provide medicine and treatment. These Muslim people begin to see the Gospel in action and actually ask to hear it explained. We leave missionaries behind with medicine and they start a church. Once it is established we help build the building.
Jim, my pushing you was not about my ego nor about my “overly inflated opinion of myself” but rather what you stated. In the big picture we are on the same team. Yes we are and not by our action but by God’s. Therefore stone throwing must not be a part of our team activities. God bless you.
January 26, 2009 @ 8:30 amLeonard – I know what dangerous work that is in India, and how valuable. I pray God’s blessing and protection on you and your team.
January 26, 2009 @ 11:59 amBy the way, Jim – you don’t annoy me. Sorry if it comes across that way.
January 27, 2009 @ 5:40 amThanks bro.
January 27, 2009 @ 6:32 pmFound this on the Orthodox Presbyterian Church website. I know by other reading this is true. It disproves that the Sunday Evening Service is a “new thing” unless 1500s is still new (which it is compared to the New Testament, but not to the 19th, 20th, or 21st century):
“Since the Reformation of the sixteenth century, Reformed churches have led the way in emphasizing the necessity for the frequent public preaching of God’s Word. John Calvin exemplified this principle in his own practice of preaching nearly every day of the week, as well as on Sunday. First in Britain and then in the American colonies, our Puritan forefathers followed Calvin’s example by preaching twice nearly every Sunday and often at a weeknight service called “the lecture.” This pattern has characterized Reformed churches (and other evangelicals as well) until very recent times.”
BTW, I am a minister of a church and on Super Bowl Sunday we moved our Sunday Evening Bible Study from 6:30 to 1 pm and served lunch between morning church and our afternoon study. I thought this was a good compromise, but then I did come up with it.
July 27, 2009 @ 9:09 amSay, I know this article is over a year-old, and I don’t know if anyone will even care, but did anyone ever realize that the Pastor you were criticizing for speaking the way he did, Perry Noble, was not at all associated with the church that decided to cancel it’s Sunday Evening service?
Noble is the Pastor of New Spring church in SC. So it seems to me that because Slice posted the criticism of the Cornerstone church’s cancellation of their service and then also posted the little gem from Perry Noble’s message, through this whole exchange, it looks to me like it was automatically assumed that Noble was part of the leadership at Cornerstone by Jim and others. So Cornerstone was deemed ‘guilty by association’ because Jim said “Actually, I went to this pastor’s website and got a whiff of one of his sermons. His arrogance is unfortuante. . .” Which shows me that Jim never bothered to investigate whether or not Perry Noble was associated w/Cornerstone and the whole conversation degenerated from the original topic of a church that had canceled it’s Sunday night service to a debate about whether or not a Pastor was being an arrogant jerk, all from a 2-minute soundbite! Personally, I have a real problem with this!
I’m going to be honest with you. Earlier this past year, I happened upon some of these so-called ODM’s and to be honest with you, if I were NOT a Christ-Follower and read some of the drivel that comes from some of these so-called ministries, I would NEVER become a christian.
As a christian, I agree we need to be discerning, I agree we need to be steeped in God’s Word to know if we’re being deceived, and I agree we need to be mindful of the wolves in our midst. But to do as some of these ODM’s do, from Silva on down, that take bits and pieces of things people have written or said and then skewer them or slam them or be their judge and jury and convict them of apostasy or of being heretics and damn them to hell on the basis of a few words when the Word of God clearly tells us the it is ONLY God Himself who knows the heart just smacks of arrogance and piety.
From where I sit, many of the ODM’s are NO better than the mainstream, liberal media who do the very same thing! For instance, when preachers who dare to preach against homosexuality and call it a sin because the Bible does, OMG, the media has a conniption and decides that based on what that preacher preached, ALL Christians apparently hate homosexuals and want to send them to hell!
I’m not going to sit here and tell you that as a Christian I haven’t been concerned about some of statements that Rick Warren or Rob Bell have made in the recent past. That I haven’t been concerned about what appears to be Warren’s embracing of Ecumenism of late and what appears to be his leanings towards a more ‘social gospel’. But no matter what soundbites we’re presented with, no matter what is written or printed, it still DOESN’T tell us what is in his HEART! And NO ONE, not Ken Silva, not Ingrid Schleuter nor anyone from a hundred other so-called discernment ministries has ANY idea of who Rick Warren is when the lights are off, when he’s in his home with his wife and it’s just him and God. And IF Warren has gone off the deep-end and somehow decided that HE knows better than God, that HE somehow has uncovered truth that God never imparted to us through His Word, then GOD will take care of the problem one way or another. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that it would start with the men/women that he’s surrounded himself with and/or peers in ministry with him, to go to Mr. Warren and say “we think there’s a problem”. Yes I realize that the ODM’s would probably say “well that’s just not possible, because these people are surrounded by yes-men anyway, and besides, they’re involved with so-and-so, so they’re deceived themselves, so why would they do or say anything?”. Yet these ODM’s have taken it upon themselves to be the Holy Spirit to Rick Warren or Rob Bell or anyone else who happens to be in the so-called ministry spotlight that says something or writes something or does something that seemingly could make it look like they’re trying to impart some extra-biblical knowledge or could make it look like they’re outside the box of Orthodox Christianity beliefs, sometimes just from a snippet or paragraph or soundbite. Just like a snap-judgment was made from the 2-minute soundbite of Perry Noble’s message, “No Perfect People Allowed”. The criticism was even more biting on the website this was originally posted on of which Rick I believe provided the link too.
In my opinion, because of the spirit with which many of the postings on the ODM’s are made (I realize Slice is no longer active), because of the PERSONAL biases of MANY of the posters of such things, these ODM’s are doing more HARM than GOOD within the larger Body of Christ. In fact, I’d even go so far as to say they’re doing the body a major disservice, because many of the postings that I’ve read, despite the authors protestations to the contrary, are NOT posted with any attitude or motivation for ‘speaking the truth in love’. Quite frankly, from what I’ve read, many of the postings are condescending and portray an attitude of superiority for their POV (Biblical as it may be), rather than humbly pointing out there may be a Biblical issue with a particular ministry and we need to be aware of it. Of those I have read, Berit Kjos actually does a great job at researching and reporting her findings WITHOUT sounding superior and judgmental.
Sorry for the long diatribe on an older blog post. I’ve just been VERY discouraged about things taking place within the body with regard to these ODM’s.
July 16, 2010 @ 9:57 am