Palin’s Been Misunderestimated
John on October 2, 2008 at 10:22 pm
I’d have to say Joe won on points, but not by much. And let’s face it. He’s had 35 years of preparation for this and walked in with literally every advantage. Despite that, Palin was confident, articulate and even put Joe on the defensive a couple times. Her closing was stronger and one of the highlights of the night. Bottom line: She’s still not ready to be President, but she’s plenty capable to be VP and she clearly is a quick study who can perform under pressure.
Watching the Fox News coverage after the debate, I noticed that Charles Krauthammer and Brit Hume are as mystified as I am by team McCain’s refusal to engage Obama, Biden and Dems in Congress on Fannie and Freddie. I don’t blame Palin because, from what I can see, she’s following McCain’s lead. But for goodness sake people, Obama is winning on this issue. His party has lots of culpability here. McCain must take the time to educate the American people. Why in the world does he refuse to engage on this?
I will say, that for all his tendency to be a blowhard and a bit scrambled, I thought Biden seemed likable and appealing as a person. Don’t like his policies, but he has a genuineness that I don’t get from Obama. But most of all, I think congratulations and kudos are in order for Gov. Palin. Over the last four weeks, she’s withstood the full assault by the Democratic/MSM attack machine and tonight she came out of that with her head up. It was a gutsy performance with no significant errors.
Tina Fey can eat it.
Addendum: Ace has a thought on why McCain is holding back on the Dems’ culpability for the financial crisis. I have to say it hadn’t occurred to me, but now that he suggests it, it’s convincing.
I hope he’s right. I hope that by Tuesday night McCain can unleash a Costco sized can of whup ass on this issue.
Also, some criticisms from Mark Hemingway at NRO:
Hands down the worst answer of the night (and maybe of the eleventy billion debates so far this campaign) was Biden’s answer on Afghanistan. Let me try and unpack it: “Well, the commanding general in Afghanistan says a surge won’t work, but the general above him, Petraeus at Centcom, says it will. But Obama’s called for a surge in Afghanistan and we need that, but I’ve never supported McCain’s military strategy which is, by the way, the surge. Oh look, here’s a picture of a cat with a piece of bacon taped to it.”
I was wishing Palin had point out that Obama suggested something that sounded a lot like a surge strategy himself.
More criticism from Jonah Goldberg:
What struck me the most about the debate – and it probably helped having quintessential Obamaphiles in the room – was how Biden’s “gravitas” is derived almost entirely from the fact that he can lie with absolute passion and conviction. He just plain made stuff up tonight. I read a long list tonight in my debate with Beinart here at Wash U, we can visit the details tomorrow.
Just a few: Flatly asserting that Obama never said he’d meet with Achmenijad; that absolute nonsense about spending more in a month in Iraq than we’ve spent in Afghanistan (“let me say it again,” he said as if he was hammering home a real fact); the bit about McCain voting with Obama on raising taxes; his vote in favor of the war etc.
I think there needs to be some fact checking on Biden in the AM.
Category: News |
John – gotta love that headline!
October 3, 2008 @ 1:30 amI thought she won because Biden seemed nervous and unsure, she stuck to her talking points, and she did not fall apart. That was all she needed to do.
I must admit she is a little shrill, though. My male bias. :)
October 3, 2008 @ 2:44 amI think she did just fine. That said, I’m still uneasy about her ability to be President- but not nearly as uneasy as I am about Senator Obama.
Will the MSM fact-check Sen. Biden? ROFLOL.
Also, I HUMBLY apologize to Gwen Ifill. She was magnificent.
October 3, 2008 @ 4:42 amCarol, as I heard pointed out elsewhere, at this point Ifill didn’t dare come off as anything but fair (though I think the whole thing was blown out of proportion from the beginning).
October 3, 2008 @ 7:29 amI think Joe won by points…but by a whole bunch of points. He also had the advantage of stepping into the celebrity frenzy around Gov. Palin as a relative unknown, and coming off as both knowledgeable, well-spoken, and likeable.
Gov. Palin did not humiliate herself, God be praised. It wasn’t the gamechanging Stockdale moment that many had feared. That would have been too horrible a thing to wish on a basically decent human being. But she didn’t win. It was, if you’ll forgive the analogy, a bit like her Miss Alaska performance. She did just fine…nothing to be ashamed of…but it wasn’t a win.
October 3, 2008 @ 11:35 amI agree it wasn’t a win. But, as I said about Obama in the first debate, holding one’s own against a more knowledgeable opponent constitutes a kind of win.
Note that Factcheck.org has gone through the debate. They called Palin out on 8 things and Biden on 9.
However, they didn’t mention Biden’s claim that Obama never said he would meet with Ahmedinejad. That’s false. He certainly did say that in a nationally televised debate.
They also failed to correct Biden on his claim that the US and France through Hezbollah out of Lebanon. Two problems a) this isn’t true. The Lebanese through Syria out; Hezbollah never left. b) The ancillary claim that he had recommended sending NATO troops doesn’t seem to be on record anywhere.
They dock Palin for saying that McCain had co-sponsored a bill to regulate Fannie and Freddie in 2006. Her statement is completely factual but factcheck has decided that “by the time McCain added his name to the bill as a cosponsor, the collapse was well underway.”
Hmmm…What she said was a fact but they’ve decided to skip past that to the implication. Question: What about Biden’s counterclaim that Obama warned about the coming crisis in 2006? Shouldn’t that be a point against Biden for the same reasons? It’s not mentioned.
More importantly, Biden must have said “deregulation” 4-5 times in the debate. Why didn’t Factcheck point out that deregulation had nothing to do with the meltdown (except perhaps in mitigating it).
Finally, the most egregious claim of the night was Biden’s claim that we spend more in three weeks in Iraq than we have in seven years in Afghanistan. Huh? Biden repeated that one twice. How did factcheck miss it?
So I score the flubs last night as Palin 8, Biden 13. Not that great a performance from the old pro.
October 3, 2008 @ 12:38 pmFrom this point on, without a game changing fall on Obama’s part, or a game changing event on cCain’s part, the dye is cast.
Of course I though Hillary would win so what do I know? :)
October 3, 2008 @ 12:52 pmOf course Joe won by points.
Indeed, HOW could he not?
Politics for 30 some odd years is like Mr. Miyagi says “too much to ask anyone to challenge”
The kinds of people who could directly take on Biden are not on the Republican scope for the moment.
Not that it makes any difference. And it won’t.
This election was over the moment the Adonis came out of Chicago Street Cred scam artistry politics.
McCain hoped to reach across the aisle and compromise.
As I predicted, this means doing the things the NYT wants you to do, along with Fred Kaplan and other wonks who see the Kyotofication of foreign policy and Swedenic social systems with British tax rates as the hallmarks of social progress.
Pet the crocs on the nose, get bitten. Iron law.
The liberals mean business now. Why do we doubt them?
Unfortunately having “exit” strategy (which generally means all exit and no strategy) does no good for the fripparies of life against the Allah Knows Best Crowd.
The people have a Constitutional right to be idiotic. So does John McCain in his never-rewarded quest to find compromise in the jaws of defeat and to disdain capitalist ideology.
To her credit, Palin DOES exhibit the Mark Steyn thesis of civilizational confidence this nation needs more than the pointy-heads who’ve given us Maoist paeans by children, and the return of marxian dialectics, and talkabout with Iranians when what is needed is their destruction.
October 3, 2008 @ 1:03 pmUnfortunately, Obama will win this election. McCain and company have been so inept at going after Obama and his profound weaknesses. If you want to study how not to win an election, McCain’s campaign should set the standard.
October 4, 2008 @ 10:30 amHaving said that about Biden, those “points” that for which the media has racked up the tally in the “win” column for Joe–all 14 or 16 of them–he lied about. FactCheck.org and American Thinker have the deadly tally of the lies.
Palin had her missteps also but did well considering the turf. Her gaffes generally limited to mistatement or misinterpretation or mispronunciation more than outright fibs of the variety that Biden and Obama have both evasively honed to fine art. And gotten away with it unscathed.
The commentators here and elsewhere are correct that if you chose to throw an election or pull a Black Sox kind of hit, the whole McCain situation room would show you the basics. Agreed. But keep in mind it never helps when the MidStream Media have not only decided to mock Palin (ordinary gals just won’t do, you need to have an Eve Ensler or Naomi Wolf hysterically hyperventilating about dark dreams of polar bear hides hanging up to dry in the White House), but to ignore those handy talking points Biden won–by lying about.
A gathering of concerned and rather regular women gathered around McCain, why…just the other day, and asked when the gloves come off. I’m willing to bet this is their Mommish way of asking when this warrior hero decides to grow a pair as large as Palin’s.
____________________________________________
By the MSM’s and feministists’ choosing, Gov. Palin is the wrong kind of woman.
By McCain’s own choosing, he’s the wrong kind of man.
-Wake
October 4, 2008 @ 2:21 pm*All Hands To Battle Stations*
*All Hands To Battle Stations*
*THIS IS NOT A DRILL*
*Operation: Destroy The Marxist is Beginning*
*LOCK WEAPONS ON TARGET 001, RELEASE SAFETY*
*FIRE, FIRE FIRE*
CNN FRONT PAGE NEWS: Palin says Obama pals with ‘terrorists’
——————–
Ok , being at how I was depressed by the impotence of McCain , I did searching around the wires for any clues about why this is so.
And from what I can gather, it was a strategy to preserve the ammunition for the final month. The campaign was waiting for October before getting aggressive.
It might be good idea.. after all, that’s what the Dems did to GOP in 2006. I dont beleive teh polls are accurate. Sure obama might be ahead but nto by the margin they say.
I dont think anyone’s position will be static and the swings can come quick I believe.. we’re in very hazardous times as a nation and i think people could be pursuaded to change mind up until that Tue.
October 5, 2008 @ 4:28 amTo Wakefield Tolbert
Did you hear Naomi Wolf on Dennis Prager’s show last week? It had to be the funniest thing I heard in a long time. I thought she was nuts when she came out with her End of America book,, but she’s even more out there now.. just like in that HP article.
October 5, 2008 @ 4:30 amLet the food fight begin! I believe one of the greatest overestimation is the continued suggestion that the average American voter is politically intelligent. They are not. :)
October 5, 2008 @ 4:49 amThe American voter is certainly NOT very intelligent, Rick. But while people can talk about the Elephonky, The Demopublicans, (as the libertarians call them) the Republicrats, and whatnot, we still DO have somewhat responsive politics. In Europe they had a one time massive handout that WAS repsonsive to base wants, but has now rendered the populace medicated on State power–which they worship in place of God. Europe has the earmarks of the ultimate Nanny State, and as such fulfills the Steyn dictum that while freedom is difficult, it is a fine site better than being coddled to the point where the people are insulated from all reality. At the vote of the European Constitution the leaders (Herr Leaders!) decided that input from the people, while slightly amusing like getting the wrong kind of dinner wine with Beef Bourgonioin, was not all that relevant. The vote of NO by the people is now YES. By default.
The leaders put fingers in their ears and said “nyah nyah can’t hear you.”
Sorta like what the Senate did here when 90% of respondents and 160 leading econimists told the Gov. not to put a penny in the fusebox to prevent the meltdown in credit. Hyperbole to the end, all of it.
This is why the first amendment is important. It is not about the NEA or absurd books like Deenie about teens masturbating with washcloths and moms who might not like the 11 year old to read that kind of crap.
That’s just droll.
It is about the far more dangerous and rather non-Palinian precedent our Canadian and European-esque pals and the Left are trying to bequeath to us. Banning of discourse on ideas.
As to VINCE:
No. But I read her “evita” article. The woman is either a laughable parody of herself or is, unfortunatley, a psychotic True Believer in conspriatorial madness of the order of the Trilateral or the Illuminati. Though with her, as with Eve Ensler, it happens to be Males who’re the Bad Guys.
http://wakepedia.blogspot.com/2008/09/whos-afraid-of-naomi-wolf.html
October 5, 2008 @ 5:49 pmLet me rephrase that—the handout mentality of Europe that led to non-responsive politics and moronic populations that make our American Idol fans look like quantum mechanics researchers—was not a one time hit.
But it was a ONE TIME kind of an idea.
With little or no resistance or backtalk at any large level. Obviously such a welfare state takes time to place over decades with incremental advances. But while its true the people wanted and begged for this and this belies the notion they often use to defend these extravagent expenditures like free health care and free college and 28 hour workweeks, in that the claim is made the government is “investing” in the people. Leftists economists defend this as “family friendly” in a manner the right wingers are not for all that talk. But it has occured to some this is wrong. It has not escaped people’s attention that Europe is not reproducing all that much except for the Islamists, and are predicating their entire future on the false mathematics of religious culture fertility rates but secular outcomes that are creating empty maternity wards and busy old folks homes (also government paid).
Ironic, really.
War could not harm them better. For decades the US shielded them from the USSR and thus from having to make vital economic decisions from a smaller economic pie.
The point of all the foregoing, this attack on a gnat with a deer rifle, is that ironically this moribund situation of false math hoping someday to be able to pay to the social bills was suppose to cure all the social ills of the modern state, of life and love itself. The real result being, as demographer Phillip Longman notes, extinction of the West. What started off as the ultimate responsive politics goody-bag handout ends up with the populations of Europe not even asking for responsible politics. Or RESPONSIVE politics.
October 5, 2008 @ 6:00 pmI have abolutely nothing in common with Christoper Hitchens, how ever this is his observation about Sarah Palin:
“When I listen to a candidate speak and I feel like asking “What do you take me for?”, I not only conclude the candidate’s incompetency, but I must ask myself who chose this person.”
Palin is the governor of a state whose population is less than Columbus, Ohio. I believe that decision stripped McCain of his “rise above politics” status and secured his place in the “politics as usual” museum. Obama’s choice of Biden was political, of course, but Biden is even more qualified than is Obama himself.
One month to go and the election night nail biter I was hoping for is slipping away! :lol:
October 6, 2008 @ 5:42 amWakefield, I don’t know where to begin. If you are going to dismiss a whole continent then best check your facts first, or else you start to look like the St Louis man proudly holding aloft a sign reading “Get a brain morans” (do a Google image search, it’s a classic).
To pick on just one point – your constant use of Britain as an example of a high tax economy. The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) in Paris collects this type of comparative income tax data, and has a long-standing methodology for comparing very different sorts of systems.
An extensive spreadsheet table comparing income tax “wedges” (as they are called by the OECD) from member countries for 2001, can be found
here:
UK
The total tax wedge is 29.7% for the average wage earner
(“average” wage is found in the 100% column — tax wedges for lower and higher wage earners are found in the adjacent columns)
Belgium
The total tax wedge is 55.5% for the average wage earner
Ireland
The total tax wedge is 22.3% for the average wage earner
Mexico
The total tax wedge is 15.3% for the average wage earner
US
The total tax wedge is 30.0% for the average wage earner
So Britain and America are pretty close (although I will grant that Britain is slightly higher) and both ‘medium’ tax burdens. In fact, just as Britain may seem high compared to it’s near neighbour, Ireland, so does the US compared to Mexico.
Needless to say, you are as wrong on everything else you say about Europe as you are on that. You still seem to think that the EU treaty is to be adopted by every nation after Ireland voted NO to it, which is not the case, as I pointed out to you before.
I hope you are a better judge of what’s going on in your own backyard, otherwise we may need to buy you a stars & stripes bandana and cardinals shirt for Christmas.
October 6, 2008 @ 6:52 amKeith:
If the stats I have on Britain and the rest of the Continent are as wrong as you say, then there would be no proud crowing as to the lofty societal advantages of high tax rates, high levels of wonderful benefits and sumptious time off, etc.
Because, ya see, it could not be afforded even in the interim time even based on deficits.
The money has to come from somewhere, and the repository of rich is almost definitionally limited.
I made a test argument–a “draw out”–and posted to Cecil Adams, and they pulled the correct tax rates and demonstrated that on average, even including the ad valorum taxes and local and sales taxes that granted are not often included in the “official” tax rates across the board for unitary type governments, Europeans still have more taxes.
If this were not the case, then the beloved answer given by the Left over and over and over and over and over to the effect that “yes, we can afford all these fripparies of life” would not even be close to being true.
There is a kernal of truth in what all pundits say. Else they’d never get off the launching pad. The question posed is not whether the Euros in general have high tax rates. That issue was settled, and there is little recourse for them for more responsive politics. The issue is, and will be, from here on out whether or not these kinds of expenditures are justified in creating, perhaps unintentionally, a society that lacks willpower, fertility, cultural self-confidence, and the ability to sustain these wonderful sleep-in ethics based on some false mathematics that empty maternity wards and busy old folks homes are a long term ticket to prosperity.
I am betting it cannot work. Demographers are also; Few burger flippers and garden cleaners and nannies will be willing or able to afford the modern welfare state’s kleptocratic tendencies for a generation or two.
And as far as dismissing an entire Continent? I am not the one doing that. Charles Martel is gone, Keith.
Today’s European parliamentary rulers are the democratic equivalent of the less-than-great Do Nothing Kings of Ye Olde Tymes, who enjoy their ladyfriends wearing nothing but Ambre Solei on the Riviera, and sipping wine from the balcony of wonderful vantages. But other than that, you can get more aggression by kicking a sleeping kitty cat off the front porch.
October 6, 2008 @ 8:16 amWakefield, if you have time go kill and want to listen to the train wreck (Dennis’ reaction to Naomi are funny) you can listen here
http://townhall.com/TalkRadio/Show.aspx?RadioShowID=3&ContentGuid=7b6033fb-c49c-45b8-9051-13c7bc13b617
Prager H2: The End of the America
October 6, 2008 @ 8:38 amDennis Prager
Prager H2: Dennis talks to Naomi Wolf, leading feminist, best selling author and Lefist thinker. Her new book is Give Me Liberty: A Handbook for American Revolutionaries.
Wakefield, much of your response makes no sense to me.
No further comment can be neccessary. As for this;
Who is Cecil Adams? Do you have data that you think is more accurate than the OECDs? If so, would you care to share it? I seem to have proved that your repeated references to Britain as an example of a high tax economy are wrong, you claim to have found evidence to the contrary, but have chosen not to provide that evidence. In my book, that means you have found nothing. Providing links and data make your case more convincingly than pure bravado.
Of the few Western banks surviving the current crisis with almost impugnity, the majority seem to be in Europe. In motor manufacturing, Europe is still at least a decade ahead of America in every way, and holding its own against South-East Asian competition. You are too busy trying to put down Europe, which is doing very nicely thank you very much, to notice where the real threat to American supremacy is coming from. Yes, we have an aging population and yes, that will inevitably cause us some problems, but your analysis of Europe is both laughable and unnecessary. Stop trying to make yourself feeling better by pointing out the imaginary shortcomings of others.
October 6, 2008 @ 3:13 pmGlad you asked.
A guy who understands the word “context” and has compiled the stats. Now some have argued these stats lack meaning as most of Europe has unitary styled governments and these figures don’t include ad valorum, local, and state taxes. But nevertheless you’ll see that unless some wild revisionism is going on, these are probably not far off the mark when it comes to the bite taken out of our backsides at paycheck time.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2367/are-u-s-taxes-low-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-industrialized-world
Not only do the income levels for the large bites seem larger, they (also importantly) kick in sooner.
As to motor vehicles, one has to wonder why BMW decided it would be cost-effective to move an entire division to a redneck outpost like Spartanburg SC, not 110 miles from my spot. Technical prowess? That can be taught, no doubt. But also without a doubt perhaps German labor unions paying 35 bucks an hour for putting bolts into doors, even if you’re not plunking down health care, is a mighty big consideration. There is a dark side to government paying for almost all the rest, you see.
And while BMW could make some thin case for your claim about the Baron Von Motorschports of the Continent, surely you know that packing up entire divisions of an industry to be shipped off the hamlets in the Deep South of the USA is not cost effective, nor the training of local workers, if things are just paradise at home.
In other realms there can be little doubt European governments have undercut some industry but have boosted others, like Minetel, and Airbus, with mixed results. The success stories do not account or make up for the fact that the United States has the most dynamic economy in world history, even if we don’t have 3200 varieties of wine and cheese. You can make a single case for anything. The USSR used to produce more oil than the shieks and still had vast gold reserves and produced more concrete and steel than the US and all of Western Europe combined. They also boasted the world’s largest merchant marine. Was this worth the price of centralized planning then? I thinketh not.
As to the banks, it is true that an unholy alliance of leftist pols and bankers decided that easy credit was the magic we should live by and truly even the Egalitarians across the pond thought better. Touche.
But they will be affected by this at some point.
Count on it.
October 6, 2008 @ 9:49 pmMeant to say the levels of tax bite are larger, and the rates kick in sooner (on the scale). This is also important due to the fact that in the US with all this bluster about the poor needing their “break” also what is often overlooked is that the net sum of transactions means that millions in the US actually don’t pay anything at all in the way of Federal taxes.
I looked again, and it does seem Adams and his research team has included most of the averaged local and ad valorum taxes in these figures. So this is not merely the equivalent of federal level taxes only. These are rough averages of all taxes. I spoke personally with one of the researchers on the team recently to make sure of what I was looking at.
Yes, Britain and most of the Continent do in point of fact have higher taxes for the average payer than US citizens. Granted some complex calculations and loopholes, deductions, and allowances make this difficult to pin down for the “average” taxpayer for any nation. That has been calculated in the stats too.
Thus the trending is shown.
October 6, 2008 @ 10:01 pmShown? No, referred to. If I had such convincingly case closed evidence, rest assured I would share it.
October 7, 2008 @ 12:20 am