Ray Comfort: Bellflower Banana Needs to Play Nicely with Others
John on June 29, 2008 at 8:58 am
Evangelist and “apologetics expert” Ray Comfort runs a ministry called Way of the Master out of Bellflower. Some of you may remember him for the “banana, the atheist’s nightmare” proof of the universe’s design. In case you missed it, as part of a TV show he argued that bananas and human hands were clearly meant for each other and that this showed God’s intent in creating both. You can see it here. To say it was an embarrassing example of sophmoric thinking would be being too kind. Atheists, rather than being horrified, have had a field day with it.
For several years now, Comfort has been coming to the crowded Huntington Beach pier to save souls on the weekends. You can see a recent example of his pitch here. Unfortunately, his efforts are beginning to attract attention beyond the crowds, but you know what they say…there’s no such thing as bad press:
It’s only the first weekend of the summer at Surf City’s Pier Plaza, and some merchants and performers say it’s gearing up to be one of the most crowded and chaotic summers in years.
Break dancers, a unicyclist, Christian preachers and others are hoping to convey a message and capture the attention of the masses – from scantily clad teenagers and tattooed hipsters to tourist mothers with babies in tow. All are fair game in the fight for money and souls.
[...]
The performers believe the plaza is a limited space that should be shared more fairly.
Zapatista Rockers – a group of about four men who do acrobatic stunts and breakdancing moves – say the Christian groups hog most of the space, pushing them out.
Arash Baboo, a member of the group, said they are willing to share the floor with the Christian groups and alternate turns.
“We try to work with them, but it never works,” Arash Baboo, a Huntington Beach resident, said. “They keep going without breaks.”
Lucky John Domingue, who hammers nails up his nose as part of his act, says the performers have worked out a system where they take turns to avoid having everyone going at once. John said he tried to get Christian evangelist Ray Comfort to join the rotation, but to no avail.
“The performers aren’t causing problems. We’re organized,” Domingue said. “The Christians set up directly in front of us.”
Comfort, who co-heads a Christian evangelist ministry based in Bellflower called The Way of The Master, said he didn’t participate in the rotation because of a disagreement about allotted time per performer.
The New Zealand native offers spectators money from 1:30 to 3:30 p.m. on almost every Saturday at the plaza if they answer a few questions. Comfort ends up yelling at them and calling them liars before he asks them to come to God.
“We get 50 people maybe, 100 people if someone is going to beat me up,” said Comfort who uses in-your-face tactics. “But that hasn’t happened in Huntington Beach.”
He blamed the chaos on the performers, saying that some of them play their music too loud.
“It’s a small area, and that’s what makes it difficult,” Comfort said.
Merchants said the performers are usually willing to turn their music down when asked. Instead, the vendors said the brunt of the problems emanates from Comfort and other Christian groups whom they said use aggressive tactics, scaring people away from the plaza and their businesses.
“I don’t do as well when all of this is going on,” said Cathy Wickersham, who sells paintings at her booth. “We agree with their message but the way they do it is too provocative and upsetting. You can feel the tension.”
Tony Saccareccia, who owns a bicycle taxi cab service called Blue Water Pedicabs, agrees. He said he’s come to the point of telling his riders to avoid certain groups.
“The religious people out there are just provoking arguments,” he said. “I’ve almost seen it come to fists before. It’s all about them and has nothing to do with everybody else.”
I realize there are plenty of people out there who think Comfort’s method perfectly emulates Jesus’ own (it doesn’t) and that any complaints are a sure sign he’s doing God’s will (they’re not). If you want to put on an entertaining show with a pointed Gospel presentation, fine but don’t be a prima donna (Ray always has two cameras on him when he’s performing). Behaviour like that described above only convinces people outside the church that they’re right to avoid it. In short, going to the most populated part of the city and steadily gaining a reputation as an intractable jerk is not doing the kingdom a great service.
Of course once Ray fouls the water he can just go home to Bellflower. If this is how he intends to demonstrate Christ in Huntington Beach, I’d prefer he just stay home and have a banana. What’s needed here, at the least, is an apology and some accomodation for others that want to use the space. That would demonstrate some appealing humility.
The ball’s in your court Ray.
Category: Religion & Faith |
I do not question their motives, however, their use of the Old Testament law as a precurser for the gospel is many times counter productive and seems to breed self righteousness. It also seems quite curious to me that avowed Calvinists are so worried about structured evangelisim when their entire doctrinal premise rejects methodology.
I am not sure why they tape these things, it seems so self serving and commercial. I have not seen many episodes of witnessing to an African native. They seem to parlay certain encounters with “See how spiritually stupid these unsaved people are?”.
Much of the blog domain that aligns themselves with this theology and allows comments can usually be distilled to this one comment to most every post…
“Oh you are soooo right.”
June 29, 2008 @ 10:33 amI remember seeing that video and thinking, “Dear God, tell me this is a joke.” Sadly, it wasn’t. While I admire Ray Comfort for having his heart in the right place, I do think his “way of the master” style is a bit too confrontational, and this simply plays into that. It strikes me that Jesus didn’t have one specific style of evangelism that he stuck to; sometimes he built a relationship with a person, sometimes he confronted their sin head on, sometimes he met a need first, and I’m sure the list could go on. Hopefully someone can convince Ray that he’s doing more harm than good with this.
June 29, 2008 @ 4:16 pmOne of the commenters on crninfo who goes by the name nc says that their style is “you’re a piece of crap” evangelism.
I do not ordinarilly use that word but it was so funny I just went all George Carlin on you all! :lol:
June 29, 2008 @ 4:20 pmRick:
You should probably say “some avowed Calvinists”. I know where you’re coming from – I thought the same way when I was on the other side.
June 29, 2008 @ 8:21 pmRick,
Yes, that’s exactly what it is! I wish I’d thought of that phrase.
Comfort has a lot of fans. Doesn’t make them right of course.
June 29, 2008 @ 8:53 pmWow, Mr. Frueh – that was crass! (j/K) I like your Carlin-phrase, it’s perfect.
Listening to Mr. Comfort was painful, and reminds me too much of the church that I grew up in. I was never shown that there was a loving God, who wanted me to seek Him, and get to know Him. All I had been told is that I was a sinner and I was going to hell. At that point, most of us kids thought we might as well live up to that image as we were destined to burn for eternity anyway.
What a frightening, and unapproachable thing to force onto people. It is embarrassing to me as a Christian. He seems to be building barriers not tearing them down.
In that clip he is definitely not living up to his surname.
June 29, 2008 @ 10:35 pmIf you’ve ever listened toTodd Friel’s radio show you might be able to detect an air of spiritual superiority. He and others engage in insider humor that is erudite in nature, and if you are not on that team you are not part of the joke.
It’s kinda like a “sect” of the church.
June 29, 2008 @ 10:45 pmThis aggressive in-your-face macho brash style of evangelism has been accepted for years. The way I was taught in the early days inferred that evangelism done properly was by nature aggressive. To do one without the other was to be ineffective and worse, cowardly.
The only people reached by this method are insecure and the only people who use it suffer from a need to be noticed (also insecure). The insecure do need to be reached but they usually can be persuaded with less dramatic means. Of course, to use less drama doesn’t give much attention to the “evangelist.
Mr. Comfort’s sincerety is of no consequence. As one atheist told me, “sincere Christians are the worst kind.” Sincerety not mixed with sensibility and driven by a need to prove oneself sees no value in fairness. The way Mr. Comfort acts contradicts the truth he shares.
Mr. Comfort and his kind must realize that the message we are is just as important as the message we share.
June 30, 2008 @ 12:48 amI’ll grant that Jesus didn’t use the same approach for everybody, but since we can’t read minds or hearts, we’re more limited.
If Comfort’s method isn’t perfect, it’s still an improvement over the “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life” approach.
June 30, 2008 @ 6:20 amHey Chris, there are more than two ways to evangelize. To find fault with one is not to automatically suggest another. Every method should be assessed individually and the end should never justify a questionable means.
I’m curious. What’s wrong with “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life?” That isn’t the whole story but it is definitely an important part. I’m not arguing, just wondering.
June 30, 2008 @ 6:48 amHow about something like this –
The bad news is that we are all fallen, sinful people who can never achieve on our own the level of perfection needed to deserve God’s approval. In light of God’s ultimate Goodness and left to our own devices, we deserve nothing but judgment.
The good news is that God’s love and grace have provided a way through which we can approach Him and not have to worry about the judgment we deserve. He has literally provided a way that allows us to be pulled back from the brink of judgment where we all live our lives.
Jesus is that way. Want to hear more?
It isn’t perfect, but it has something for everyone – Judgment for the Ray Comforts of the world and at the same time Grace, Love and Mercy.
June 30, 2008 @ 7:44 amHaving read and re-read the Gospels much of my adult life, I just can’t see where the Master ever used that method. I seem to recall that storytelling was front and center. The apostles didn’t, either. Remember Paul? Up on the Areopagus? That’s how it’s done.
Comfort drives away more souls from Christ than he ‘converts’. Why? Well, last time I checked scripture, “The Accuser” was not one of the titles taken by Christ or given to the Holy Spirit. That particular title is held by another.
June 30, 2008 @ 9:16 amCalvinists practice an evangelism that resembles the game “Battleship”.
They fire – Miss!
They fire – Miss!
They fire – Miss!
They fire – Hit!
And of course they will not have an altar call for fear of methodological manipulation, but TV cameras and a well oiled presentation that anticipates all answers is just preaching the gospel. :lol:
June 30, 2008 @ 10:06 amAs a Calvinist, I have no problems with altar calls, accepting people immediately into the faith when they receive Christ as Lord and Savior and preaching about the mercy, love and grace of God. I agree that repentace must be included in the gospel presentation.
I know of the Calvinists you refer to Rick. My two brothers are involved in this sort of thing. I find it annoying and stay away from it. They seem to discredit conversions until they follow the person around and see if they really act like Christians. In short, they become “cosmic cops”. I prefer the Reformed practices found in the “frozen chosen” – Presbyterians. At my former church, we gladly accepted anyone who professed Christ as Lord and Savior. We didn’t spy on them, doubt them or view them through the lens of spiritual arrogance. We saw them as people who had an authentic encounter with the Lord and rejoiced in the miracle He performed in their heart to bring them to saving faith.
June 30, 2008 @ 11:12 amI agree with so many of you. Yes, David, he has to be driving away more souls than he is bringing in.
I equate it to parents telling their kids not to do something, such as, “Don’t drink and drive because you’ll end up in a car accident and die.”
Although, that is indeed a possibility, the child is not going to listen to that, because “parents are always trying to scare you into not doing something”, and because it is not told in a meaningful way. It just seems exaggerated and over-the-top. It will be discounted at best. Or, completely rebelled against, more likely.
Although there is no one-size-fits-all evangelism, frightening people is not going to be the way to bring people to God. In the unlikelihood that someone does listen, it is very likely the same person who listened to the “don’t drink and drive” scare story, and walks around afraid of their own shadow.
The only time a “scared-straight” tactic could work is if you have tangible evidence in front of their face.
I guess if you could lock them up for the weekend in Hell, and allow those stuck there for eternity to chat with them, that would be effective…
June 30, 2008 @ 11:20 amEnnis, I know there are more than two ways to evangelize.
“God loves you…” has, in my mind, a fatal flaw. Jesus essentially preached “repent and believe the good news.” That method tends to leave people without any notion of needing to repent.
To borrow from Comfort, if you tell people about the cure before you tell them about the disease, they won’t see any value in the cure.
I tend to blend Comfort’s approach with the Evangelism Explosion methods. EE uses two “diagnostic questions” to try to determine why people think they’ll go to heaven. If they already have a sense that their sin makes them unfit for heaven, you can go on to grace. If they are self-righteous, you start with helping them see their sinfulness.
I think the latter is what Jesus was doing with the “rich young ruler” and Paul did at Mars Hill (yes, he starts by complimenting them, then goes straight to idolatry and how God’s not going to put up with it anymore).
July 1, 2008 @ 5:35 amJohn and Scott – why can Rick Warren be verbally eviscerated for consorting with heretics but Ray Comfort can speak at a conference of extreme health and wealthers many of which are heretical hucksters? Will we see consistency in the ODMs criticism of one of their own? Check it out:
http://www.inspiringexcellence.org/IE08Speakers.htm
July 1, 2008 @ 6:13 amRick,
Amazing! How did you catch that? I think that deserves a whole ‘nother post on Mr. Comfort. Nice catch!
July 1, 2008 @ 7:44 amIt wasn’t a catch on Rick’s part.
I think he’s responding to the ODM he already has in mind: SoL, which has has already castigated Ray for his participation in this conference (and posted his response). I’m OK with Ray’s explanation.
The Sower didn’t sow seed only on good ground. He sowed seed on every kind of ground that was under his foot. He flung seed every which way and let it fall where it would – not just on “good ground.” In fact, in the context of that parable, it cannot be said that the sower even knows what kind of ground he sowing seed into because he drops seed and moves on. He’s not there when the hot sun wither’s the root (else he could water it), or when the birds take it (else he would shoo them way). By the time the seed begins to respond to the ground (heart), the sower is outta there. There are other workers for that work.
So Ray’s OK in my book going there. Here’s to hoping God’s blessing in his work. When I’ve had to address a group that I know ahead of time is going to be particularly antagonistic, (whether is person or in print) I approach it know that everything I have to say is probably for only one person in the entire crowd. That seems to be the way God works – one at a time. Perhaps God has plans for just one person – and not even for anyone on the stage. Some ONE person in the audience that God is going to turn. We never know how the Spirit of God will work.
July 5, 2008 @ 5:44 pmKirby,
I agree with your point of sowing seed wherever possible, which is the exact reason Rob Bell gives for appearing at the Seeds of Compassion event and that Rick Warren uses when discussing visiting N. Korea.
And, actually, to be fair to Rick. He brought this whole thing to our attention on July 1st. I looked into it and put up the post When and Where Does Hypocrisy Begin a few hours later on July 1st. Ken Silva came by and began to try and stir things up within an hour or two after the post went up and acted as though he wasn’t interested in pursuing it. He was lobbing his verbal Ken grenades up until late in the afternoon/evening on July 2nd. I emailed Ingrid in the early morning on July 3rd. She replied shortly thereafter and then later that day put up her post. According to her, she didn’t know anything about it until July 2nd.
Not that this is a game of oneupsmanship, but Slice was a couple days behind on discussing Comfort’s participation in the Word of Faith conference. And as far as I can tell from surfing around the blogosphere, Rick pretty much got the ball rolling here and elsewhere.
July 5, 2008 @ 11:06 pmThank you, Scott. I saw the commercial on Christian TV on the 1st, until then I had not heard about it. I have only been the first to discover something once before.
I discovered the tomb of Tutankhamun. I never received the credit for that either! :)
July 6, 2008 @ 3:05 amActually–Comfort had a THIN point. Perhaps he didn’t know it at the time. Bananas are funny in their own right just sitting on the table–and you might say this had an appeal that was ripe for mockery anyhow.
The Great Banana Caper was sneered by the atheist peanut gallery because the fruit was a horrid example of Devine Design as it was HUMAN breeding–not God’s–that made the modern banana what it is today. The original was not edible by humans.
However, as some have pointed out, it was edible by SOME creatures (that’s how fruit disperses seed), and the very fact that humans manipulated it–and indeed COULD manipulate it–indicates the same thing as for pumpkins, tomatoes, beans, wheat, apples, and roses: The original was different than the human mode-made.
Nothing more. Nothing less. Right?
Or is it so?
This actually indicates that Intelligence of some type or another CAN manipulate the environment at the genetic level even if the exact reasons were as unknown to the ancients as they are known to us today. It matters not. It still indicates that Design is a testable parameter to any “natural” product.
July 8, 2008 @ 9:01 pm[...] This post was Twitted by lizlivaaeis [...]
August 14, 2009 @ 5:00 pmI wrote to Living Waters about my concerns re Ray’s apparent misunderstanding of the Law to mean only the Moral Law, I never got an answer or an acknowledgment. This theological flaw in his method is nailed nicely here:http://www.searchingtogether.org/secret.htm. To date, I find Permission Evangelism to come closest to who the Lord did things. I quite like Share Jesus without Fear too. What have you found to work well on the street?
December 16, 2009 @ 6:33 am