Typical White People
John on March 20, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Obama has really opened up Pandora’s box here. Listen to him try, unsuccessfully, to backtrack from an earlier remark:
Here’s the key segment transcribed:
Obama: The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity…she doesn’t. But she is a typical white person who, uh, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know, you know there’s a reaction that’s been bred into our experience that don’t go away.
This is such an interesting phrasing. I don’t mean the “typical white person” which is obviously problematic as it assumes there is such a thing. I’m more interested in the rest of that quote. Let’s break this down.
If she “sees somebody on the street.” Here we’re obviously talking about someone black, but he doesn’t say that. Why not? He’s just referred to his own grandmother as a “white person” why not refer to a “black person” on the street. It’s very odd to shy away from that in this context. It’s as if Barack can verbally acknowledge white stereotypes but not black ones.
Then it gets really confusing with, “there’s a reaction that’s been bred into our experience.” What in the world does that mean? If something is a result of experience, we call that judgment or learning. But if something is “bred into” us that would seem to be innate, or prejudicial. It seems to me a reaction can’t be both. It can be innate or learned, predjudice or judgment. Either one obviates the other.
I can only conclude that when he says this reaction is bred into “our experience” he means the experience of the culture at large. In short, he’s returning to the old saw about the media focusing on black crime to the point that all black people begin to look like criminals.
So the suggestion here is that “typical white people” who may be wonderful in many ways, nevertheless have an unfortunate view of blacks which has in some way been foisted upon them contrary to reality. Here’s the problem with that.
Black people commit a great deal more violent street crime per capita than white people.
Not a slight difference, but a large and statistically significant margin. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, in 2004 black males aged 14-24 were 1.2% of the population yet committed 26.1% of the murders in the US. If that figure were attributed to redheads or left-handed people, you bet there’d be a different assessment of those individuals walking down the street.
This is the problem black America faces, or more accurately hasn’t been able yet to face. This is not a PR problem that can be solved with better TV coverage. The problem of black crime (mostly against other blacks) is not one that exists primarily in the imagination of white people. It’s one that exists in the real world.
And yet, over and over, we see responsibility for this being denied, obfuscated and transferred by people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Rev. Wright and now sadly, Barack Obama. The few individuals who do stand up and place the responsibility where it belongs, like Bill Cosby, quickly become pariahs.
So as a “typical white person” in America, I’m all for a national discussion on race. America has a shameful history or racism and the history of black pain at the hands of whites must never be forgotten, just as the holocaust of Jews in WWII must never be forgotten. But at some point, I’d like to see us talk about what’s happening now. And what’s happening now is tragic.
Too many black Americans support and defend a culture that glorifies gangs, drugs, misogyny and violence. And please don’t swat this away with “well its white kids buying that crap.” Sure it is, but the white kids aren’t killing people at anywhere close to the rate black kids are. They aren’t growing up without fathers at anywhere near the same rate either. Bottom line: I don’t care who is buying it, I care who is doing it.
There are all sorts of caveats here. Barack’s grandmother is of a different generation. Maybe she really did have some racial issues that needed to be addressed and corrected. Maybe she was “typical” of a certain time or place. I don’t know. But for people who grew up after the 60s and after Dr. King, the insinuation of a “typical” kind of white racism is tiresome and, generally speaking, false. I know there’s still racism in America, but it’s not typical anymore. It’s not the default position of the average 30 year old white person. Sorry, but things really have changed. They’d have changed even more if the reality of street crime weren’t working so hard against blacks.
What Barack is offering us is an outdated stereotype of whites. It’s going to cost him.
A lot of white Americans believed Barack Obama was past all that. He was a symbol of an America that had moved past the color of someone’s skin to look at the content of their character. After this week, I’d guess quite a few people of all colors are disappointed to discover we’re back to talking about “typical” racial traits. Because, unfortunately, that means Barack is no messiah leading people out of racial ignorance toward a better future.
He’s just typical.
Category: Politics |
Your post, John, is an exquisite example of how your “typical” white person does not understand the nuances of prejudice and latent racism. It is inherrant in the sin nature to view other races as different which sometimes morphs into some level of fear and judgment.
No non-black person can ever fully comprehend the black American experience. Your editorial that views race instead of the race blind sin nature is also a distorted way of parsing racism through the prism of an earthly view with only a one race experience, your own. Your black crime interpretation is also a myopic view that provides a comfortable shelter around the average Caucasian dinner table.
Besides being enviably naive, that statement represents a pristine example of white blindness that refuses to see and acknowledge that even though overt progress has been made in race relations, racism on all sides continues to live in America although it has become adept in being clandestine and camouflaged.
Obama’s views on many subjects are unbiblical, but his words on race are painfully honest and yet, in light of the problem, they are tepid. Watch as white America listens to every syllable in which to pounce upon any perceived misspeak or minute offense that will ALWAYS come from anyone who addresses race in this country. And in the midst of a genuine conversation about the third rail of all subjects Obama might just use a phrase that offends one or more quadrants of the racial audience, we can be assured he won’t get away with it.
Heaven forbid we allow him some forbearance realizing that he will be unable to navigate all the verbal landmines like the rest of the candidates simply because THEY will only touch it with safe and antiseptic words designed to say NOTHING. And Rev. Wight will stand in for the publican by which we can convince God that we we’re OK because we are not like him.
Obama did not address race on his own, he was pushed into it, but I am willing to listen and learn from someone with an experience much different than mine. He will make mistakes, but he has something to say to us. And he will be ducking white and black bullets alike. Racism is not a race issue, it is a sin issue that is overt in many and dormant in others.
Sorry, John, I disagree with your assessment of Obama’s words. I had hoped to watch this election year with disinterest and amusement, however this issue should be important to us as Christians. And we should allow the Holy Spiritto filet our perceptions so as to clearly see that we have not seen the overall problem as it truly is. The “stereotypes” still exist in large numbers contrary to popular belief in the white ostrich community.
http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2008/03/sin-of-racism-i-personally-believe-that.html
March 21, 2008 @ 5:41 amJohn, Your post is one that reveals the level of your own racism. I wonder how you can pen the words and not feel any sense of shame? When you talk about “black crime” and sight your so called statistics and percentages on crimes committed by black people, you are implying that it is genetic. Because they are black, they commit more crime. The fact of the matter is that it is a socio-economic one. There are more black people that live in the inner city. The inner city breeds poverty, fatherless homes and a general lack of education, which leads to crime of every kind. Specifically, the desire for money, which is inherent in every person, can mostly be obtained by criminal means i.e. drugs, prostitution, theft, etc. Whereas in the heathen suburban life, there is much less poverty, so pleasure can be purchase with ease. Although the gap is closing. I am of course speaking in completely secular terms, because the only cure for the breakdown of the home is Jesus Christ.
To sight those statistics, which don’t separate inner city and suburban crime rates is absolutely worthless. All of the people in the inner city are poor, most are black, some are white. All of the people in the suburbs are rich, most are white some are black. Why don’t you find out what the statistics are of black crime in the suburbs? (where they are 5 percent of the population and committing 2% of the crime) Or better yet, find an northern inner city that is predominantly white (there are still a few left) and quote the statistics there. Think before you speak next time.
March 21, 2008 @ 8:00 amRick,
I agree it’s inherrant but not always negative. For instance, I see Asians as different, but I find myself envious of many (not all) of those cultural differences. Difference does not always lead to dislike. What’s missing from your formula is that it sometimes morphs into fear for good reason. To be even more blunt, I don’t want my kids growing up as part of the “hip-hop nation.” You couldn’t pay me to raise them that way. That’s not fear, it’s good sense.
First of all, I’m pretty sure you just called me a typical white person. Second, there’s nothing myopic about these figures. Murder is not some minor statistical detail on which we can easily “over-focus.” Murder is the most serious crime imaginable and a sure sign of a sick society/culture. I’m sorry but the idea of being “myopic” about murder is absurd to me.
Nevertheless, we could look at many other measures of health, from stable family formation to teen pregnancy to abortion, and find that black American seem to be in serious trouble.
I specifically didn’t deny that racism still exists in America. On the contrary I admitted that it did. What I denied, and will continue to deny, is that it is the default viewpoint for white people under, say, 45 years old.
An interesting metaphor. I appreciate his willingness to engage the issue. What I don’t appreciate is a return to the same old “blame the white people” mentality that conveniently skips over black responsibility for problems in their own culture.
Many stereotypes exist. The one about racist conversation at comfortable Caucasian dinner tables is one. The one about violent black youth is another. The question is, which one accords with reality and, more importantly — even if we assume both are true, which is doing more harm to black Americans. You say the former, I say the latter. In fact, I think you can’t solve the former until you address the latter.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
March 21, 2008 @ 8:39 amRick – your comments are just too complicated for my poor feeble brain to comprehend.
Chris – The “inner city breeds poverty . . “? Really? I didn’t know a city could breed anything. I also didn’t know that ALL people in the inner city are poor or that ALL people in the suburbs are rich (my checkbook is surprised). It appears that you see black people as a class of victims, as opposed to individuals who are responsible for their own lives and decisions. This, I believe, is an example of what is called the “soft bigotry of low expections”.
I agree with John’s assessment – if we’re going to have an honest discussion about race in this country (and the Lord know we need one), we’ve got to get past the blame-game and black victim/white guilt dichotomy.
I believe every living person contains within themselves the sin of “prejudice” – it’s human nature to look askance at that which is different. A bigot delights in this prejudice, a non-bigot is shamed by it and prays to God to change his/her heart. I believe with ALL MY HEART that the vast majority of white people are in the latter category, and that all true Christians are.
We’re never going to get past this until everyone is held to the same standard of behavior – no excuses, no whining.
March 21, 2008 @ 8:44 am“a non-bigot is shamed by it and prays to God to change his/her heart. I believe with ALL MY HEART that the vast majority of white people are in the latter category, and that all true Christians are.”
A Rembrandt in white blindness.
March 21, 2008 @ 8:56 amCarol, My point was blacks are not more prone to crime because they are black. Either its genetic or socio-economic. That’s all. What in the world is your point?
March 21, 2008 @ 9:01 amAnd I’m not blaming the white man for black crime. It is merely a sinful man’s natural response to his particular surroundings.
March 21, 2008 @ 9:08 amDiscrimination against white people has been legal for 30 years in the form of affirmative action. An entire grievance industry has sprung up around making white people do the perp walk for saying something that violates PC speech codes i.e. “nappy headed hoes,” but whites are guilty until proven innocent, as in the Tawana Brawley and Duke lacrosse incidents. The media has a field day and the black “leaders” come out to make sure that “justice” is served, all the while ignoring what the Mexicans are doing to their own people. Meanwhile, we have the beatings of white girls in Long Beach by a mob of black youth, and none of the perpetrators are even condemned, much less punished.
There’s nothing a single bit racist about what John has said. He’s merely reporting facts. The only racism at work here is that of Mr. B. Hussein Obama, who was raised by whites after his black polygamist Muslim father abandoned his hippy white mother. He decided to join black culture, which is his right, but he went several steps further and joined the church of a racist “preacher” who lived in part of of the country where Jim Crow never even existed.
I continue to be amazed that whites find it necessary to blame discrimination for the lack of black success. “The inner city breeds poverty.” Really? There’s a bunch of Koreans and Vietnamese that live in the same inner city neighborhoods in Los Angeles that seem to be successful as soon as they hit the ground running in this country. All of the southern European peoples that immigrated to this country last century ended up in the same inner city neighborhoods with the blacks. How come they don’t have a problem? Jews have been discriminated against throughout the past 2000 years, yet there’s more Nobel prize winners amongst them than any other group of people, and there’s only 16 million of them in the world.
March 21, 2008 @ 9:52 amChris,
I think you are trying to read WAAAY too much into what John said. At no point did he say anything about genetics or that blacks were in any way genetically inferior to whites. I think he makes it clear that he is talking about the culture that exists and is allowed to continue in the black community and specifically in the inner-city black communities, primarily by those in black society the so-called “black leaders” that have a vested interest to keep the idea of “white racism” alive and well so that they can stay in business.
Bill Cosby is just one example of prominent blacks who have spoken out against the dangers found within the black inner-city culture that has been seeping out into the rest of society. Other prominent blacks such as Larry Elder and Clarence Thomas have been vilified just as much as Cosby, if not more so. Meanwhile, the true hucksters and charlatans like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the like who stopped being a positive force for good LONG AGO are allowed to continue peddling their own brands of anti-white hatred and bigotry.
If Barack Obama was truly interested in being a presidential candidate whose ideals transcend race, then he never should have made the remark. The comment betrays his true opinion, namely that the “typical white” person is racist and/or has racist tendencies.
What is disturbing is that he is speaking in 2008, not 1958 or 1858. If it was another era or another century, perhaps he might have been justified to make that kind of statement, but in 2008 he just sounds sad.
We all know that any person, no matter who they are, has certain prejudices. That’s just how we roll through life. But that being said, I have seen very few white people under the age of 40 who evidence any sort of prejudice based on race. In fact, over the last 10-20 years I have met far more blacks who are prejudiced against whites than I have whites who are prejudiced against blacks. I think there is a resistance within the mindset of many black leaders (including Obama and his wife) to give credit where credit it truly due and to acknowledge the reality of life in 2008 in the U.S.
My high school students don’t see race in terms of prejudice, they simply see each other as people. If anything they are able to appreciate qualities about each other’s racial background and culture while also being able to laugh at the foibles of each other’s cultures. The college-age and younger career folks that I know and interact with are much the same…viewing the differences as cool, unique and positive qualities, not as dangerous, scary and ominous.
Chris, it sounds to me like you have made an assumption about John because you think you know what he is thinking and what he believes simply because he is white. Perhaps that is a prejudice all your own.
March 21, 2008 @ 9:53 amPRCalDude, You have made it obviously clear with your reference to Koreans that you believe it is genetic. The socio in socio-economic refers to culture. That is why the Koreans and others come to this country and do not have the same rate of violent crime, etc. It isn’t because at their core, they are less sinful than the black man. Their culture values family almost higher than anything. Their cultural history, like everyone’s, is past down to some extent from generation to generation and affects them to some degree. Their cultural history is vastly different from the African American’s. If you really believe that had the races been reversed from the time of Noah, and black history became white history and vice versa, and the white man would have ended up less prone to violent crime than the black man is today, then you are truly a racist in every sense of the word. If this is the case, please continue to blog on racism, and cease from presenting the gospel – it’s embarrassing.
March 21, 2008 @ 10:13 amDon’t look now, but Barack Obama once expressed the same fear of blacks as the “typical white person.”
March 21, 2008 @ 10:16 amWhere did I say it was genetic?
March 21, 2008 @ 10:17 amPR – You subscribe to an Ann Coulter (your blog) view of America and its racial problems. She is a puffed up and self absorbed “journalist” who lives on the wings of hyperbolic invectives. You seem to be obsessed with illegal aliens and I believe you fail to see the reality of racism in both the country and the church.
Go to the First Baptist Church USA and see if they would embrace a fully integrated youth group with inter-racial dating accepted and encouraged. A long way to go, my friend, a long, long way.
March 21, 2008 @ 10:20 amJohn and Scott – why are 98% of the serial killers white? Why are 90% of child pornographers white? Why did Ted Bundy become a serial killer while coming from a white middle class family?
This is not a black issue, it is a sin issue. I, as you know, consider politics a distraction. But the race issue transcends politics and is still active within the church even though it wears different clothing these days. When the Koreans come here did we sell their parents to different owners? That is the destruction that was done to the black family and they live with the vestige of that horror.
No excuses, no whing, just some compassionate reality.
March 21, 2008 @ 10:26 amChris,
No, I’m not implying anything of the sort. On the contrary, I’m stating that it is a cultural problem, the result of choices, i.e. the choice to not get married, the choice to “run the streets” as my black co-workers in Washington used to phrase it.
No, nothing is being bred. It is being learned. People are being taught to behave this way.
You say that as if poverty is merely a function of geography. It’s not true. Poverty is much more a function of dysfunctional families. Single parents are far more likely to be poor. The source of the problem isn’t where people live it’s how they live. And that is a cultural choice. The fact that more than 2/3 of black children are born to unwed parents is a choice being made by individuals.
I have no illusion that whites or any other race are immune from the dangers of negative culture. Because this isn’t really about race, it’s about culture. You’ve reacted to something I never said or meant to say.
The fact remains that of all the cultures in America today, black (and if you wish, black urban) culture is producing the worst outcomes by almost any measure.
The San Francisco chronicle examined life in black urban neighborhoods and found:
I’m sorry but white dinner table conversation, whatever you imagine it to be, is not a problem on par with the above. Not even close.
March 21, 2008 @ 10:29 amInteresting questions. I won’t call you a racist if you write a blog post looking for answers.
As far as I know, that ended in the South at Appomatox circa 1865. Here we are, a century and a half later, blaming slavery. There was no slavery in the North, nor Jim Crow laws, nor KKK. Abolitionism was started by white New Englanders and men like Frederick Douglass.
March 21, 2008 @ 10:41 amActually, the figure is about 74%, so 3/4.
March 21, 2008 @ 10:47 amRick,
I don’t know. It’s certainly true but I couldn’t tell you why. However, you better believe that if I did know (or believed I knew) I would be eager to root out the cause and minimize its effects so that there would be fewer white serial killers.
When we talk about black urban culture, the situation is quite different. I believe I can tell you why it produces violence and social devastation. Because it is angry, misogynistic, materialistic, arrogant, squalid and stupid. It promotes irresponsibility, violence, mistrust of legitimate authority and a sense of victimization and entitlement, none of which prepare people for healthy participation in a free society.
I agree with you that murder is ultimately a sin issue and all races are equally afflicted with sin. And of course I agree as a Christian that there is no ultimate and perfect solution apart from faith in Christ. But none of this changes the fact that human culture can either lead us toward or away from the better angels of our nature. At this moment in time, black urban culture is exacerbating sin to a degree that other cultures are not. It wouldn’t take a miracle to make it better.
March 21, 2008 @ 10:50 am“As far as I know, that ended in the South at Appomatox circa 1865.”
Maybe that, but racism is still alive and subliminal white supremecy beliefs lurk within the white community. Overt racism existed in the south and north as recent as the “whites only” sixties. When they do an undercover “home for sale” sting they find that blacks aqre charged more and even are told no houses are for sale.
One of the black journalists on msnbc said that he remembers as a 7 year old boy travelling north to see his grandparents and his family, representing a black experience, slept in the car because it was burdensome to find a motel that allowed blacks and those that did overcharged them and offered nothing but unpleasantness.
Ya think that has an effect on people and their children?
March 21, 2008 @ 10:52 amNobody is arguing the particulars, but what I believe that the white community fails to appreciate is the obstacles that the black community has overcome and continues to have to overcome. It is a turnstile when a black boy doesn’t know his father or knows many relatives that go to jail as a regular part of his life experience.
It is not my fault but I cannot just, as a matter of speaking, say “stop that and help yourselves”. Many poor people of all races waste their money, practice laziness, use alcohol to excess, commit crime, etc., etc., but we are still to help them not only materially but spiritually and practically. Obama using the phrase “typical white woman” offends us but Ferraro’s observation that Obama has only risen to where he is due to his race doesn’t phase us?
When I married a black man and a white woman, both professing Christians, half of the church leadership would not attend the wedding because they abhored it. That is overt racism by any Biblical understanding and exists today in the pews.
March 21, 2008 @ 11:00 amRick,
There are plenty of stable black families living in the suburbs who look down on what is happening in black urban communities with the same disdain. And the truth is, people who marry, buy a nice home and hold down a legitimate job are doing better. They have some reason to feel good about their choices. Note: Not their skin color. Their choices in life.
Yes I do. It doesn’t excuse the murder rate, teen pregnancy rate, abortion rate, marriage rate, etc. You seem unwilling to recognize that the disproportionate rate of black crime is itself responsible for some of the ways black people are treated. So we hear much about the wealthy black businessman who can’t find a cab in the city late at night. But this has to be balanced against the cab driver (of whatever race) who was held up by a black teenager he picked up. Both are happening and one problem feeds the other.
March 21, 2008 @ 11:04 amJohn – refuse the acknowledge the implications of what you are stating. The inference is that the problem is with the black race and not their environment and history. We have no slavery/out of slavery standard with which to compare in America, there is only one.
It just may be that the historical particulars that came with the American blacks are extremely difficult to overcome, even if they were applied with any race.
March 21, 2008 @ 11:15 amI can honestly believe that. Unless you experience it, you probably can’t really know.
Many of these problems (particularly fatherless households) can not be solved by anyone but the people involved. We can’t mandate marriage. We can try to force fathers to at least take financial responsibility for their children but this is not nearly enough. What we need is an American culture that values fatherhood and shames irresponsible behavior.
Again, I acknowledged in my post that Obama’s grandmother may have been part of an older generation with some real racial issues. In other words, maybe she really was “typical” of her time. But I don’t accept spreading that over all or even most whites today. It’s not true in my experience of many, many white people over the years.
As for Ferraro, she was a paid operative for Hillary Clinton. She said it, not me. Does it phase me? I guess not much since I didn’t write about it. It seems like just one more maneuver from the win-at-all-costs Clinton political machine. It’s dog bites man.
I didn’t write about Rev. Wright either. Again, he’s a man of a certain age who grew up in a different America than the one we have now. Maybe some part of his anger is justified, even if misdirected and anachronistic.
My interest in Obama’s statement comes from the fact that this was a man who had a real shot at being our next president and who seemed to be genuinely different. Not that I’d vote for him, but I at least had the sense that he judged people as people first and races much later. And I believe that he expected the same treatment and all of that was healthy and seemed good to me.
Like many white Americans I like the idea of having a black President. It would feel like a healing moment for the national psyche, I suppose. It would give me hope that maybe black Americans could finally look at white Americans as partners instead of persecutors. Like most whites, I’d love to see more blacks succeed in a country where prejudice is a thing of the past.
But what Obama said here just brings it all back like a bad lunch. Typical, racist white people afraid of the black person coming down the street. Wow, how many times do we have to hear that. Are we ever going to talk about this a different way? It’s just disappointing. Even if he wasn’t my candidate, I hoped for better.
March 21, 2008 @ 11:32 amI might vote for Obama just for spite.
Naaah…what does it prove. I remain quite happily disconnected from the American political scene. Peace to all and thanks John for allowing a spirited exchange without anyone being called a man loving pelagian!
March 21, 2008 @ 11:37 amRick,
The problem of pride in one’s heritage is not going to be helped by accepting shameful behavior in one’s present. The standards set by black parents and cultural leaders need to be higher than they are at present.
As a people they’ve lived through hell on earth inflicted on them by others and come out the other side with dignity. What’s happening now is self-destructive and self-indulgent. Fathering and abandoning children can never be justified as a legacy of our racial history. It’s a cop out. It’s time we said so in my opinion.
March 21, 2008 @ 11:43 amRick @ #13
Listen, you’ve really made me mad, now. I am a member of a Baptist church – we have interracial marriages with bi-racial children and guess what, those children belong to our Youth Group!! Gasp! The horror. And the men are active in our Bible studies. And the women are active in our women’s activities. Because WE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST.
You are definitely stuck in a time warp, and I suggest that, before the throw around accusations of bigotry and racism like that, you check it out.
Chris @#6 – It’s the culture.
March 21, 2008 @ 11:51 amRick,
Don’t blink just yet. The “Man Loving Pelagian” post is in the cue for next week! You won’t want to miss it…or maybe you will!
March 21, 2008 @ 11:59 amYou’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
March 21, 2008 @ 12:11 pmRick,
Always good to exchange with you even if we disagree at times.
BTW, I left it out of my comment above…Your story about the reaction of church leaders to an interracial marriage is horrible. Personally, I don’t think I could have stayed at such a church, at least not without confronting those who behaved that way face to face. Crap like that shouldn’t happen anywhere but especially not in a church. Disgusting.
March 21, 2008 @ 1:12 pmJohn – in my lifetime I have been able to witness a legitimate black candidate (maybe nominee) for president as well as a direct planetary hit by Shoemaker-Levy 9 on Jupiter.
There are no coincidences!
March 21, 2008 @ 1:27 pmIf I can tap into a side issue here for a moment (and I almost didn’t, because I don’t want to look like I’m picking a fight with PR on this thread, but) I don’t understand the big deal in the States about Barack Obama’s middle name being Hussein. I mean, I know the significance of the name – former England Cricket captains who underperformed in the role should have no say in the running of your great country – but it’s a given name. Ergo he had no choice in it and presumably it was given a long time before it held any negative connotations like test series lost to New Zealand etc.
It’s like me saying don’t listen to Kanye West, not because he’s a materialistic misogynist, but because he has the same surname as the most infamous serial killer in Britain (He was white, by the way, if that helps).
March 21, 2008 @ 2:45 pmWhat struck me about Obama’s speech was how he managed to equate so many others to Rev. Wright: his grandmother, Geraldine Ferraro, Reagan voters, Talk Radio, other preachers (unnamed, apparently they all make boo-boo’s like Rev. Wright). Of course, none of these comparisons equate.
March 22, 2008 @ 2:32 pmBill Cosby, in the recent past, warned that unless Blacks stop playing the blame game they will never improve their conditions. Obama had an opportunity to take a very positive step forward in educating and encouraging the Black Community but he missed it.
When Barak next chooses to lecture America on all of our racial failings, he will be much more convincing if he can tell us of another Nation- including all of Africa- with greater toleration than what we have here in America- God bless Her.
I do not believe Obama’s racial observations can be assigned “lecture” status in the same vein as Rev. Jackson or Rev. Sharpton. We also must be more than careful in our view of America as better than others which is relativism and relies on horizontal comparsons rather than an inward inventory.
We must respond exclusively as Christians and not Americans, and the reference to Africa seems to indicate a less than clandestine distaste for Sen. Obama’s heritage. Politics brings out the worst in people and more specifically Christians because it sets up false dichotomies and divides on the basis of subjective views rather than propelling believers to transcend this world and embrace a higher plane of discourse based on a much higher plane of grace and love.
God is presently not in the business of “blessing” any particular nation and His only desire is to “bless” His church and empower us to reach those under the sentence of His coming wrath. This nationalistic view of the world by Christians and segments of the church is spiritually counter productive and indeed tethers us to the temporal at the expense of the eternal.
We must see all people through the eyes of Christ and never through the prism of an American view regardless of conservative or liberal (all man made labels). The church doesn’t need more “toleration”, we need more “reconciliation” through Christ which is our New Testament ministry.
It is unpleasant to hear of Calvin’s complicity in murders, or Luther’s rabid anti-semitism, or the failures of Christian leaders throughout history. But it equally unpleasant to assess the racism as practiced by the church openly in past generations, and it is also myopic to assume it has all disappeared, and while we all can see much progress, it would be productive to listen to someone share some truths without becoming defensively patriotic.
Our pursuit is Christ, and there just may nuggets of convicting truth that emanate from different races, and like sheep we are called to spit the stones and consume the truth. The journey comes with inconvenient bumps, sometimes unsaved bumps, placed there by God.
March 22, 2008 @ 3:25 pmRick,
March 25, 2008 @ 6:52 pmRarely in my life have I read anything that was such utter nonsense and insanely illogical as what you have written in response to my post! You try to put words in my mouth, you make unfounded accusations, and you totally miss the point that the ONLY choice for Obama was to unreservedly leave Rev. Wright’s church. He failed to do so. That’s simply undefensible.
First of all, if you choose to dismiss America’s greatness to “relativism” it would appear that you are totally blind to history and, most likely, stuck in the 60’s. That dog just doesn’t hunt.
Obama did indeed attempt to “lecture” us but I never compared what he was saying to the rants of Jackson or Sharpton. Well, add in Wright and Farrakhan if you please, but please don’t offer that I did so in the first place.
“We must respond exclusively as Christians and not Americans…” How did you get to set the rules, Rick? I am both a Christian and an American and my experiences in both venues recoiled at what Wright had to say, and to Obama’s defense of the indefensible Rev. Wright.
“…and the reference to Africa seems to indicate a less than clandestine distaste for Sen. Obama’s heritage.” Easy, Rick, rather pathetic and quite untrue. Let’s try to keep it on an intellectual level instead of, when lacking for facts, resort to inane suggestions of racism. Just another dog that won’t hunt.
Have you been to Africa, Rick? I have. Many times. Can you possibly be unaware of the many incidences of genocide that have taken place there? Or of the slaughter now taking place in Darfur? Or do you just choose to dismiss them? Relativism again? On one visit I was at a friend’s factory in JoBerg, (Johannesburg to the uninitiated). I noticed yellow lines painted on the floor and I asked my friend if the “new” South Africa had something like our OSHA. He explained to me that one of his Black workers nearly killed another Black worker because he “strayed into his working space” and was of a different tribe. That’s pretty rare in America, but, sadly, very frequent in Africa.
“…to transcend this world and embrace a higher plane of discourse based on a much higher plane of grace and love.” Jeepers, last time I heard something like that I was at a concert in Madison Garden and there was a mighty strange smell in the air.
“God is presently not in the business of ‘blessing’ any particular nation and His only desire, etc. etc.” Rick, in stating this you more than likely accept as mere coincidence the vastly abundant evidence that God has indeed blessed America in many, many ways. Look at the history of our great Nation and take a moment to look around you. Do you think this all was an accident? Rick, you should consider that the hardest math is to count your blessings.
“…spiritually counter productive and indeed tethers us to the temporal at the expense of the eternal.” Rick, any Sunday School child will tell you that “His Kingdom is not of this World.” Herein, Rick, you are truly mired in far left quicksand. While we cannot “earn” our way into Heaven- only the Grace of God can do that- we are nonetheless called upon to reject Evil in this World. We cannot ignore, as you choose to do, the hatred and venom in Rev. Wright’s sermons, or dismiss them with some absurd defense of “relativity.” Likewise, we just cannot illogically accept Sen. Obama’s defense of Wright.
Yup, we need more “reconciliation through Christ.” I’m a Sunday School Teacher, and have been for more than a decade. I and my associates emphasize that the “Second Greatest Commandment” is to love one another. Reality, however, is that thousands of Madrasses throughout the Muslim world, including the West, teach hatred to their children. I had been shocked to find that numerous of the 9/11 hijackers (and the British bombers) had lived in our society and still choose to kill thousands of innocent men, women and children. Any kind of a practical plan whatsoever on this count, Rick?
Choose to “see all people through the eyes of Christ and never through the prism of an American view…” Thanks for the opportunity to deliberately blind ourselves to fact. We are now doing exactly that, for example, by the prohibition of “Profiling.” You and I will never see eye-to-eye on that but I’m fairly comfortable that searching grandmothers at the airport is probably not the right way to go.
“…share some truths without becoming defensively patriotic.” Give me a break. God granted us dominion over the world. That also implies an obligation to use our God-given gifts. I didn’t hear many “truths” from Obama and that has zero to do with being “defensively patriotic.” Facts are, after all, a hard thing.
Rick, it’s high time for an honest discussion about race in America. Fifty years after the “War on Poverty,” all of the statistics point that America has wasted trillions in a failed effort which you are defending in the name of our Lord. Shame on you!
My partner and I were privileged by God to start an African missions organization 15 years ago just so you know I wasn’t using Africa indiscriminately. I cannot converse with you Kevin on the level you wish because I am an American because the government says so, but my heart is not. America was birthed when a collection of saved/unsaved people rose up and violently overthrew the British because of taxes.
It would not have mattered if it was taxes or religious persecution or anything, where in the New Testament does God give Biblical license to murder the government for even the “best” of reasons? If you can find it then I will help smuggle weapons to our brothers and sisters in Christ in China. The church has given America preferred status in God’s eyes with no objective evidence. I dare not list the sins that go on in this nation.
My point remains that we as the church (not American) need to examine our own hearts about race, and this probably unsaved man (Obama) has shared some unique insights into the interaction between the races. Should he have left his church? Sure. But I do not condemn him (Christ came not to condemn) because he is already condemned and needs Christ. I will, however, ask the Lord to search my own heart about racism or any other sin. But as you will see this year, a discussion of race among the unsaved is an exercise in uselss rhetoric passed from one fallen head to the next.
I offer my perspective which may be as you suggest “utter nonsense and insanely illogical” and usually no opportunity for constructive dialogue can take place when one perspective views the other with such absolute disdain.
March 26, 2008 @ 3:57 amObama’s comments show how ignorant he is. He believes his own lies.
As for Obama’s white grandmother she probably regretted the failure of her daughter in picking a suitable, loyal husband. As for the “typical White person’s” reaction against seeing blacks on the streets – that’s hatred, not fear. Very few people are afraid of blacks.
Blacks are responsible for most violent crime. I’m not talking about black-on-black crime. I couldn’t care less about that. I’m talking about black-on-White crime. Obama’s use of “typical Whites” to dismiss the real anger at being victimized by blacks just shows Obama doesn’t get it. Obama’s use of “real anger” to justify blacks’ criminal lifestyle and their culture’s reliance on violence is disturbing.
America does not need a real discussion on race. We don’t owe this to blacks. America just needs to see blacks as they really are – a problem that requires a permanent solution.
March 26, 2008 @ 9:14 amThank you Lyn for showcasing the musings of a racist without adding any distracting veneer.
I believe you mean the “Final Solution”.
March 26, 2008 @ 9:54 amLyn,
I’m not sure what has happened to you to make you talk this way, but it’s not healthy.
There’s a big difference between saying black culture is a problem (it is) and black people are a problem. And your reference to “a permanent solution” sounds a bit Hitlerian to me. Maybe that was intentional?
Anyway, I’d strongly encourage you to get outside the Stormfront mentality. If you can’t, then take it somewhere else. I don’t want that here.
March 26, 2008 @ 9:54 amThank you John.
March 26, 2008 @ 10:11 am“Thank you Lyn for showcasing the musings of a racist without adding any distracting veneer.”
But, Rick, earlier you had said:
“But I do not condemn him (Christ came not to condemn) because he is already condemned and needs Christ.”
Nice comment on not condenming anyone, but I guess you really didn’t mean it?
More. Does your following statement sound like condemnation?
“I believe you mean the “Final Solution”.”
Rick, you are, at heart, just a pompus windbag who hides behind both our Lord and Savior and the protective rights of every American, which you scorn. May the Lord forgive you but, please understand that clear-thinking Americans will, indeed, pity you. We will, but most of us will pray for you anyway.
Rick, you also made the following statement:
“…usually no opportunity for constructive dialogue can take place when one perspective views the other with such absolute disdain.”
The disdain that is actually patently obvious here is your undisguised hatred- be honest, Rick- of America. You refuse to acknowledge the inherent goodness of America- our people, our values and our history. Your postings make that pretty obvious.
Are you young enough to still join the US Military, Rick? That would no doubt give you a much, much better understanding of the fact that Freedom isn’t free. You could even join as a Chaplain, but I doubt your anti-US feelings would allow you to pass the initial interview.
When you state “…a collection of saved/unsaved people rose up and violently overthrew the British because of taxes,” your consumate and wide-ranging ignorance of this Nation’s history is widely on display.
Rick, I don’t hold you in disdain, but I do pity your deep-seated misconceptions. I’m going to pray for you, my friend. Such angry feelings that you posit probably don’t allow you to ever smell the flowers. That’s a shame. God has “…plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” Life is a gift from God. We need to do the best we can in this Life to spread the Word, but to do so honestly.
America, and all of her citizens, are not perfect. Your criticisms of that fact totally ignore that the only perfection this world has ever seen was in Jesus Christ.
March 26, 2008 @ 5:12 pmRick,
My pleasure.
Kevin,
Lyn clearly was issuing some foul racist views and in my opinion those views deserve whatever disdain we can offer.
And it wasn’t just Rick who was reminded of the “final solution.” I was typing my comment as he posted his (i.e. I didn’t see his until mine was up) and I made the same connection.
March 26, 2008 @ 6:08 pmWhen the golden calf of nationalism is challenged the conversation almost always deteriorates into “pompus windbag who hides behind both our Lord and Savior” invectives which provide ample revelations for how invested the church sometimes is in idolatry. I appreciate your prayers.
March 26, 2008 @ 6:10 pmRick – I guess my brain is still too feeble.
You sure do know how to complicate an issue – you must be a Democrat!
March 26, 2008 @ 7:02 pmCarol – what I mean is that many Christians are not even open to a calm, respectful discourse on the role nationalism should play in the evangelical community. Since Lynn’s comments are rejected wholesale, Kevin writes with a certain emotionalism that evokes personal attacks.
My position is not the majority, but it is not illegitimate and I do not hate America.
March 26, 2008 @ 7:12 pmKevin – you talk the talk of someone used to winning arguments, but your points don’t stand up to much inspection. You take
as ‘condemning’. What’s condemning about it? It’s possible to describe someone as a murderer, racist, thief, liar etc without condemning them, and that’s all Rick has done here. As John pointed out, the inference of “final solution” was there for all to see.
And you throw around accusations of pomposity?
And you display no disdain for Rick or his point of view? But here’s the point that finally did it for me;
America, much like any other country you care to mention, is not ‘inherently good’. No country is. No more is any nation on earth ‘the great Satan’ either. Plenty of wrong has been carried out in the name of America, continues to be carried out to this day. Every American citizen sins every day, innocent Americans get wrongly convicted by a legal system that’s not fit for purpose and others commit heinous crimes with impunity. (For just one example off the top of my head, see John Grisham’s non-fiction The Innocent Man.)
Your implication that God has blessed America, presumably because of it’s ‘goodness’ is just plain wrong, unChristian and one step away from the poison that is the Prosperity Gospel. If God always materially blessed ‘the good’ on earth, then history, (of which you seem so fond, if in a slightly bombastic way) would be very different.
I expect your response to be highly aggressive and accusatory, since that seems to be the way you dialog with those who disagree with you, but can I state here that I do not hate America, I am a Christian and I don’t particularly know Rick, nor do I always agree with all that he says.
March 27, 2008 @ 2:52 amKeith,
You state:
“America, much like any other country you care to mention, is not ‘inherently good’. No country is. No more is any nation on earth ‘the great Satan’ either. Plenty of wrong has been carried out in the name of America, continues to be carried out to this day.”
Try telling that to the monks in Tibet. To Cubans risking their lives to free tyranny. To the people of what was Burma. To Christians in Darfur. To the Jews who survived Hitler. Or, to starving North Koreans…one could go on and on. The list is just about endless, Keith. However, it would appear that nothing short of perfection- an impossibility in this world- would satisfy America critics like yourself and Rick.
We are, indisputably, so very, very blessed to be citizens of this great Nation, to have been born here or to have immigrated here. As has been correctly observed, America is the “shining city on the hill.” For all of the “ill’s” of America that you choose to mention, there are nonetheless untold tens of millions across the globe that long to live here.
You are quite correct, IMO, that Americans sin every day, innocents are convicted and that heinous crimes are committed. But, what in the world is your point, Keith?
I talk about the “inherent” goodness of America and “that point really did it” for you?
Beam me up, Scotty. There’s no intelligent life down here.
March 27, 2008 @ 4:12 amI reserve the right to archive this post thread as evidence of my supposition. Many Christians have moved from an appreciation of the freedoms offered in America into blatant idolatry which even describes America in almost Biblical terms. Kevin is not an isolated case, this attitude is pervasive in much of evangelicalism.
It is true that God has used a segment of His church that resides in America, but it is also true that like the Jews in ancient Babylon, the church has been in many ways learned the ways of the heathen. When people say phrases like “America needs revival” they have given this country an ecclesiastical flavor because America is not a church. The church needs revival.
I am well aware that discussions like these hit raw nerves, but that should drive us to prayerfully consider just how a Christian should view the place he lives in. It is very easy to become partial and see God’s “blessings” strictly through a material sense. The fastest growing evangelical community in history lives in China. In post WWII China had an estimated 8 million believers, today they are estimated anywhere from 80 to 100 million. And that grwoth took place with hardly any Bibles, no Christian TV, no radio, no mega churches, no freedom to worship, and many believers incarcerated and even put to death.
And yet they grew both numerically and spiritually spending much, much time in prayer. Now I ask you, with only outward evidence as our guide, which country was blessed of God since WWII, America or China? You see, sometimes we are prone to see things according to this world and not with the eyes of the spirit.
We are followers of Jesus Christ who happen to live in America, not Americans who happen to follow Jesus Christ. A subtle but substantive difference. Thanks, John, for allowing such a spirited exchange.
March 27, 2008 @ 4:49 amJohn – when I said that the church has in many ways learned the ways of the heathen I only have to read the thread “Wierdness of the Day” and I can see the church about which everyone was speaking has learned the business structure and the CEO power from the heathen, they certainly did not learn it from God’s Word.
March 27, 2008 @ 4:52 amRick,
No argument here. In fact, the pastor told me the genesis of his “clear the decks” idea came from reading Good to Great by Jim Collins.
I think America is an unusually blessed nation. We’re the only wealthy industrialized nation with this level of faith. That said, I’d have to agree that the Gospel nowhere privileges America, nor should we.
March 27, 2008 @ 9:03 amKevin
You mean you can’t see it? You were partly right, incidentally, something closer to perfection would justify, in my mind, a description of America as ‘inherently good’.
Am I an “America critic”? I suppose it’s your term, you can define it, but I don’t think so. You seem to view America through such rose tinted spectacles that I felt the need to add some perspective. But in your eyes, anything other than fawning adulation is somehow wrong.
America is blessed, no doubt about it, but not because of it’s inherent ‘goodness’, and the consumer society is not necessarily a blessing. Oh, and the millions of people around the world wanting to come to America, in the main that’s not to do with how ‘good’ America is, it’s to do with how much stuff they can get there.
There are Americans who cite as their favorit verse of teh Bible “God bless America” – are they graduates of your Sunday School class?
March 27, 2008 @ 10:20 amRick and Keith,
“Now I ask you, with only outward evidence as our guide, which country was blessed of God since WWII, America or China?”
I have a good friend, a Chinese Missionary, who my wife and I have supported for many years. He, among many others, has worked tirelessly to support the growing Christian Church. There is little doubt that God is working a miracle there. My friend’s been in prison and has had many painful experiences. Nonetheless, he has baptized hundreds, if not thousands. With all his experiences of persecution, there’s still absolutely no way in the world that he would regard “China as more blessed than America.”
Further to the point, I’ve been to Europe quite a few times and lament as to how religion has largely been purged from their societies. Organized religion, historically, caused the Europeans a great deal of pain. What strikes me, however, is that Europe has seemingly grown tired of problems they have faced for a thousand years, or more. America, by contrast, is relatively young and we are confident of our abilities to solve problems. I agreed with John when he stated “I think America is an unusually blessed nation. We’re the only wealthy industrialized nation with this level of faith.”
It’s really hard for me to grasp the extent that both Rick and Keith try to picture my love of Country to appear extreme: “golden calf of nationalism,” “…just plain wrong, unChristian and one step away from the poison that is the Prosperity Gospel,” “seem to view America through such rose tinted spectacles,” “…moved from an appreciation of the freedoms offered in America into blatant idolatry,” “favorit [sic] verse of teh [sic] Bible “God bless America” – are they graduates of your Sunday School class?”
Gentlemen, this all started with what I considered to be an excellent, clear-thinking Post by John in response to a racist rant by the preacher of the man who will probably become our President. (BTW, today, we found that the preacher who blames America’s many, many ills on “rich white folk” has himself a $1.6 million dollar retirement home. Not bad work if you can get it, I guess. And, Rick, not available in Africa or elsewhere.)
I dislike stating the obvious but here goes. My first and overriding loyalty is to our God Almighty and his son, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I’ve neither wrote nor implied anything to lead either of you to a rationally different conclusion.
As a thinking and , hopefully, rational human being, I know that there are numerous things wrong with America. However, I also know that, from an historical perspective, this is a great, great Country much blessed by God. That’s in spite of the fact that it’s hard to understand why He would so favor us? I actually agree with Rick’s reference to Babylon and to that end I am re-reading the Book of Daniel and Beth Moore’s outstanding study.
To dismiss the obvious is your choice. To believe that most people want to come to America for “how much stuff they can get there” is a sad, sad comment. They come here, Keith, because this is still the Land of Opportunity. That opportunity isn’t to “get stuff.” It’s to be safe, first, and to be able to build a life of freedom and to provide their children with greater opportunities than what they themselves had in another country.
We have an illegal immigration problem- in case you hadn’t noticed, Keith- and Hispanics aren’t flocking to America to “get stuff.” They are fleeing a hellhole of poverty and class discrimination. To say they only want to “get stuff” is an insult to these people and a very un-Christian thing to do.
Why is it often said that the most patriotic of Americans are the most recent immigrants? There’s no complexity there. They recognize far better than people who were born here, who take it all for granted what America offers and represents. You both have tried your best to downplay the good that is America. I choose not to do so, but I don’t do so blindly. I’m optimistic about America’s future and I believe that our “glass” is half full, not half empty.
If memory serves, the Founding Fathers wrote something to the effect: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”
Rick, you need to re-read that passage a couple of times. Do so and kindly reconsider your statement, “America was birthed when a collection of saved/unsaved people rose up and violently overthrew the British because of taxes.” (And please don’t waste my time with a pathetic response that that didn’t apply to Black people. It took a great deal of blood but America eventually got that right.)
Finally, I was saddened by the comments that Lyn wrote. But doesn’t she deserve the benefit of doubt? We all should have asked her exactly what she meant. That is, after all, the Christian way. Did she mis-speak? If she is a sinner, we should try to help her, instead of coming to conclusions and jumping all over her. Was she, for example, a victim of Affirmative Action? If she didn’t misspeak, it’s indeed deplorable.
“Black culture” is undeniably a big, big problem. We all know the sad statistics. However, in the final analysis, it really matters not how we (Whites) see ourselves. As in the words of Shakespeare, “How do others see us?” Reverend White has told us exactly that. He has not been condemned by the Black Community, by the (White) Mass Media, or by either of the Obama’s. We intellectually know that he was wrong, that the implications of what he said are terrifying, but few of us are willing to stand up and speak the truth.
Just another thing that’s wrong with America, “Political Correctness.”
March 28, 2008 @ 5:54 pmKevin – check out Lyn’s blog to see if she misspoke. There is a great gulf between our views.
Peace – Rick
March 28, 2008 @ 6:04 pm” However, in the final analysis, it really matters not how we (Whites) see ourselves.”
“Henceforth know we no man according to the flesh.” (Paul)
We are not white, we are in Christ where there is no white or black. I only have one Founding Father and He isn’t white either.
March 28, 2008 @ 7:11 pmI understand why you might find this quote from Obama confusing. I don’t think it’s clear or well-state. I think the phrase ‘typical white woman’ was a poor choice. I think if he had said “she was a white woman who had very common attitudes about non-white people,” that would have been better and I’m guessing that’s what he meant. The fact is, I think we can overanalyze candidates’ every word and in doing so, not see the forest because of the trees.
But, if you must hold this quote under the microscope, then here is a possible explanation of the phrase, “bred into our experience,” which you spent a lot of time talking about.
“Bred into” can also mean “inherited from” and I know that racial attitudes are largely, though certainly not entirely, inherited from our parents. So we have inherited certain attitudes from our experiences growing up. So, if we MUST disect this passage ad nauseum, this can still make sense. BUT…. it’s not well-said, AND…. please, listen to the overall message from each candidate. I have and I proudly support Barack Obama, gaffes and all. I’ll gladly take an imperfect Obama over Hilary Clinton or John McCain.
April 15, 2008 @ 10:04 amLook – do you proudly support infanticide?
April 15, 2008 @ 11:16 am